[Patrick_Mucci]

On another thread I referenced the 11th hole at Merion in a historical context.  I then began to think of the required values for each shot.  Then, the 8th hole at NGLA popped into my mind.

Here is a hole that demands a decision and precise execution on the tee shot, approach shot, any recovery shot, and putts.

It provides a complete test at every opportunity.

What other holes place a high demand on thought, decisions and execution on every shot ?

[BCrosby]

No. 3 at ANGC.

Every shot requires a critical decision that has large and direct consequences for the next shot:

- which side of the fairway to play to off the tee (bunker left, trees right. You will want to flirt with one or the other depending on pin location.)

- short iron to very small green perched on a ledge that needs to be kept below pin. If your drive leaves you on the wrong side for your approach, it's good night Irene.

- nasty putting surface. Every putt is full sphincter lockdown.

A terrific little hole.

Bob

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

The 12th at Plainfield CC (NJ) -- arguably among the finest par-5's in the USA IMHO!

Love the serpentine creek and the spine that runs lengthwise through the green. You think on every shot for sure.

[Mike Hendren]

The Road Hole.

Tee:  How much do I want to bite off - not just for a shorter approach but also for a better angle?

Approach:  Do I want to run the ball onto the green, risking going over onto the road or do I play short and right, with no guarantee that I can achieve the precise distance to align my third shot down the green?

Pitch (from anywhere):  bump-and-run or carry the flat putting surface?

Putt:  Do I abandon all sense of caution, hoping for a much coveted par and lifetime bragging rights, or do I lag, perfectly content with a five that was once par for the hole?

Last week, with the pin tucked directly behind the Road Hole Bunker, I missed an 8 footer and 3 footer for par, the former after a pulled approach and bump-and-run around the Road Hole Bunker, and the latter after a delicate pitch from the grass strip between the path and road behind the green.  

Regards,

Mike

[Jeff Fortson]

Mike,

I see that you still are under the spell of TOC!  I agree with everything you just said.  I think it's fantastic that you got a chance to play there as it is life altering in relation to golf.

Another by my calculation would be #7 at Cruden Bay.  The tee shot is a "cape-like" one in which you have to decide a route which will in return decide what club you use to tee off with.  Then the second shot is very tricky and can be played on the ground or in the air.


Jeff F.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I would add # 1 at NGLA as well.

[A_Clay_Man]

Besides thinking that every hole requires decisions and execution, shouldn't all great courses have an ebb and flow to their shot demands? Isnt that what distinguishes great from just plain ol' good?

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

I don't know if you have ever played # 8 at NGLA ?
If not, have you seen pictures of the hole ?

Are there many holes requiring such a difficult decision and a more demanding drive ?

Hitting off of a canted, high left to lower right fairway, to a well guarded, highly elevated green where the pin looks like its on a gangplank in space, I don't know that there are many holes that require more decisions and precision on the approach shot.

And, if you miss the green, are there many holes that demand more decisions and precise execution in order to recover ?

I've played a few golf courses, classic and modern, but, I don't see the decision and execution demands that I see at
# 8 at NGLA.

And yet, it's fun to play, and it's even fun to play if you miss your shots.

The gauntlet of bunkers signaling certain peril and the fortress like green waiting to repel your attack make the hole both challenging and fun.  But the key to the hole may be in the decisions you have to make, especially in light of the day's hole location.

It is unique

[Jeff Fortson]

Patrick,

I was just about to add #8 at NGLA in reference to you adding #1.  I agree that it not only asks you to choose a route but when your route is chosen you are still faced with a demanding shot.  

I know through other threads that you consider this to be one of the finest holes anywhere, and to be honest with you, I can't argue with you on your stance.  It is truly one of the finest two shot holes, strategically speaking, in the world.


Jeff F.

[A_Clay_Man]

Sorry Pat, I guess we have the same problem of not knowing what the hell the other is talking about. But from your description I experience the attributes you relate often. Maybe its Pinon or have people been copying attributes from NGLA?

[Patrick_Mucci]

A Clayman,

But from your description I experience the attributes you relate often.

Either Pinon is one hell of a golf course, and/or you play some great golf courses, routinely.

Holes like # 8 have been rare to come by in my limited experience.

[SPDB]

Pat - What do you think about Piping Rock #14 for an answer?



Either 1) lay back off the tee an hit from the top of the hill, where you at least will have a view of the green, but will likely be holding a 6-7 iron in your hand. 2) Bomb a 2 Iron/3 wood to the bottom of the hill and have a LW/SW in, but no view of the green.

Whatever choice you make, you still have to hit the fairway, b/c hitting and holding that green out of the rough, regardless of club, is very difficult.

With its Knoll green complex, nearly any missed shot brings double into play. You can't see on this photo, but the back of the hole

It's one of the trickiest short holes I know.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Are you sure that the picture you've posted is # 14 ??  

It bears an uncanny resemblence to # 13.

Irrespective of the hole number it certainly makes you think,
I just don't think it's as demanding as # 8 at NGLA

[Doug Wright]

Patrick,

Good question/thread. My first reaction was #18 TPC Sawgrass/PGA West. Clearly demand execution, and decisions too regarding how aggressive to be. I think Pete Dye is an an exemplar of this style.

Best,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug Wright,

I think you've illustrated what I've been trying to say, and that is, that these shots, require decisions, and then there is significant, if not overwhelming pressure to execute them.

[Steve Lapper]

I would the following holes to this discussion:

#13 at Pine Valley (and quite a few others there, but none have the exact values that are demanded here)

#12 at Southern Hills (every shot demands a perfect decision and yet remains fun to play)

#11 at Shinnecock....not much need to be said here! #14 might work as well.

#18 at Winged Foot West

#5 at Bethpage Black

#18 at Riveria

#6 at Royal Mebourne West


Well, I digress...these all meet the standard.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Slapper,

I find nothing in the way of decisions, or the need for precise execution on the tee shot at # 13 at PV, what am I missing ?

I also don't see the decisions on the tee shots on all of the other holes you mention.  Again, what am I missing ?

[Steve Lapper]

Pat,

  Tell me you don't see the decision on whether to seek the exact opening gap for the approach shot, and exact executin of such in order to access that green in two vs. laying back a bit and making it into a near three shotter, as most caddies at PV advise to players who don't have the skill to navigate it?

 If it is missed, it then requires a 240ish cut or draw. What part of demand execution am I missing there?

As for #12 at Southern or the other 4 par's listed, your choice of how much angle to bite off (without an water hazard dictating the decision) absoltuely demand decision! These all easily rival #1 at NGLA.

As for #11 at Shinny...club selection and angle of approach followed by one of the highest premium on exectuons followed by some of the hardest recoverys and putts.

Have you ever played Southern Hills or Royal Melbourne?

[JWL]

Patrick Mucci
Could you give me a quick explanation of your choice of #1 at NGLA.  I would appreciate seeing the hole from your perspective.   I have to admit that I have only played the course one time and I obviously missed something there.   It looked wide open from the tee (back) and I just hit a driver 10 feet from the hole.   Easy two putt, birdie.   Hitting it the greenside bunkers didn't appear to be any particular problem, so I must have missed all the options.   I am not trying to be sarcastic here, because I have read where others have lauded this hole and I am upset with myself for having missed something that must have been obvious.   I would appreciate your perspective, since you obviously love the hole.   Thanks

[Patrick_Mucci]

Slapper,

The tee shot on # 13 at PV seems rather wide to me.

All holes may have prefered routes, but not with the severe consequences one faces at # 8 at NGLA.  If you were to pick the centerline at # 13, and missed it by 10 yards, is it a big deal, have you penalized yourself that much
How about missing it by 20 yards ?
I don't see any threat off the tee other then a pulled hook if you were aiming left or left center.

As to Southern Hills, I've played the course more then a few times, and three times in competitions.

I like the golf course and # 12, a hole that favors a draw, which was my typical shot pattern with my driver.
I think equipment has diminished the strategic value of the left side bunker, but, it's still a great hole.  I just don't see the extraordinary gain with flying the bunker versus a good tee shot down the middle with a draw.

JWL,

Let's say, for the sake of this exercise, that I believe that you missed something on this hole.

When one can hit a 322 yard drive 10 feet from the hole on a green with five or six tiers, there wouldn't seem to be much stragegy involved, which may be a great argument that technology and equipment have rendered the intended strategy obsolete.

But, back to our exercise, and I'd appreciate your candor.
 
When you played # 1, were mulligans permitted ?
Were you playing under medal or match play conditions ?
Or was it a casual round ?

[ed_getka]

JWL,
   Where was the pin on #1 at NGLA the day you played? Getting OUT of the greenside bunkers wouldn't be much of a problem, but getting UP and DOWN would be pretty damn impressive. If the green contours along with the bunkering didn't register for you, you must be one heck of a golfer.

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