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A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #125 on: February 21, 2020, 12:10:06 PM »
AG -
You think *Tiger* had a challenge?
I say, "luxury"!
When I was young, there were a hundred and fifty of us living in a shoebox in the middle of a lake. We used to have to get out of the lake at three o'clock in the morning, half hour before we went to bed, lick the lake clean with our tongues, eat half a handful of freezing cold gravel, go to work in the mines 24 hours a day for fourpence every six years, and when we got home our Dad would beat us around the head with a broken bottle and slice us in two with a bread knife -- if we were lucky!
Not comparing, just saying -- both Tiger and Bobby had it *easy*!
Pete,
I weep for your lost childhood.  Thanks for telling your story; it is truly amazing that you were able to overcome that and reach the heights of human achievement that you have, exemplified by being able to be a member of this august body of golf experts.  I don't know what else to say.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Peter Pallotta

Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #126 on: February 21, 2020, 12:14:52 PM »
Thank you, AG.
I just needed to be 'heard'.
I do admit feeling proud that I managed with a Herculean effort to pull myself up from the pit of despair, and can now post on golfclubatlas.com about various and sundry matters.
I feel that, in my own small way, I'm helping to make things right.
 

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #127 on: February 21, 2020, 12:21:33 PM »
This was posted by Erik in a PM
I messaged you privately because I had more to say but, as one might do in person, I tried to take the conversation off to the side so as not to continue to further clutter up the rest of the discussion. Have it your way.

Secondly, I am not confusing likely with harder you are.
I am not. You have now said that something "rarer" is "harder" (more difficult) to achieve, but didn't answer my question about winning the Masters on an arbitrarily chosen date.

You have the same putt but in two different scenarios.

The first is a 10 foot putt in a practice round the second is the identical putt but to win a tournament.
That's a bad analogy if your intent was to show a mathematical likelihood versus the skill or difficulty of actually achieving something. And then to go with the word "infinitely"?

The rarer an opportunity is the higher pressure it becomes and therefore the harder it becomes.

Once again, you're confusing mathematical likelihood with rarity. Over a 40-consecutive-majors-played streak starting at the U.S. Open, Tiger still only had ten chances to win four consecutive majors, just like a 40-consecutive-majors-played streak starting at the Masters.

You didn't answer my question, which I'll revise slightly:

1. Which is more impressive, purely from a skill/talent/winning/playing good golf/athletic achievement perspective:

Winning the Masters on exactly April 14?
- or -
Winning the Masters on any other date?

Winning the Masters on exactly April 14 (as Tiger did last year, IIRC) is certainly far rarer than winning it on any other given date, but no more "difficult" from a skill/talent/etc. perspective.

I'm defining "difficulty" as the skill, talent, etc. it takes to achieve it. I'm not defining it by adding in the statistical likelihood of it occurring. You're choosing an arbitrary starting date - which is fine if you want to have the opinion (which I do not share) that the only kind of "Grand Slam" is within a calendar year - even though that has nothing to do with how challenging it is to actually achieve it.

I define "difficulty" - and I feel I've been clear on this - as what it takes to actually win or to achieve something. A player winning the Masters on exactly April 14 does not, solely because he won the Masters on that particular arbitrary date, mean it was "more difficult" a sporting achievement than anyone who won on April 10 or April 12 or whatever.

More questions:

1. What is more "difficult": batting exactly .197 in a Major League Baseball season, or batting above .300? More people do the latter.
2. What is more "difficult": missing 99 consecutive free throws in a row in an NBA game, or making 90%+ of free throws for a season? More people do the latter.
3. What is more "difficult": a starting NHL goalie giving up exactly 2 goals on his birthday and to the Pittsburgh Penguins, or a starting NHL goalie averaging less than 2.50 goals for a season? More people do the latter.
4. What is more "difficult": running a marathon in exactly 3:12:45.78 or running a marathon in under 2:30:00?


---------


Edit to add: I've made my case, have repeated myself more times than I should have, and now rest that case. IMO, Tiger's achievement was a "Grand Slam" - a variation Wikipedia and others classify as a "non-calendar-year Grand Slam," and I am also of the opinion that winning four consecutive majors over ten months is a greater sporting achievement than winning the same four majors over half that span of time. What Bobby Jones achieved in 1930 does not compare at all to what Tiger accomplished, given the strength and depths of field back then, in addition to having to beat only a handful or two of people to win each of the match play events.


/unsubscribe  :)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 12:48:50 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #128 on: February 21, 2020, 01:30:26 PM »

I messaged you privately because I had more to say




Maybe it is time you stopped talking and started listening. You are so hell bent on being right that you misinterpret (though I doubt you are knowingly doing so) in order to be able to ignore the obvious conclusions that must be drawn. You poo poo the mathematical side when it suits but then in the next sentence are pushing the mathematical because you think it backs you up.


unsubscribe? maybe you should ;)

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #129 on: February 21, 2020, 01:31:45 PM »
OT to the OT:


It is in bad form to publicly post content from a private message on here unless you have the permission of the one who's words you are posting.


This is a community of golfers, after all.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #130 on: February 21, 2020, 01:54:16 PM »

I messaged you privately because I had more to say




Maybe it is time you stopped talking and started listening. You are so hell bent on being right that you misinterpret (though I doubt you are knowingly doing so) in order to be able to ignore the obvious conclusions that must be drawn. You poo poo the mathematical side when it suits but then in the next sentence are pushing the mathematical because you think it backs you up.


unsubscribe? maybe you should ;)


Ask him about this Physics degree
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #131 on: February 21, 2020, 01:59:59 PM »
An amazing amount of otherwise wasted free time has been poured into this thread. Impressive.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #132 on: February 21, 2020, 02:06:40 PM »
Joe and Erik,


I could just as easily send this to you privately, but I have engaged with people on this forum before who seem to dismiss reason and etiquette in the pursuit of being right (even if they call you out for just that). I felt it important to say that you likely have dozens reading this thread who do not wanting to get dragged into a conversation that resembles a scientist trying to convince a climate change denier with facts and figures. Maybe that's an extreme example but that's how it begins to read.


Anyway I wanted to say (because it often goes unsaid here) that I admire your discourse, your presentation of facts, and feel you have made your argument in a convincing fashion. I also think posting private messages in public forums without consent is in bad form and uncalled for. True to your public posts it is a solid re-framing of your argument. I don't know why Jon felt the need to break it down or to be outraged over an innocuous PM, but that is not the first of his viewpoints I disagree with in this thread.


Very glad you participate here and I look forward to your next post,


Alex
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 05:00:31 PM by Alex Miller »

Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #133 on: February 21, 2020, 02:53:06 PM »
OT to the OT:


It is in bad form to publicly post content from a private message on here unless you have the permission of the one who's words you are posting.


This is a community of golfers, after all.


How about when they send you a private message but block your ability to reply?
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #134 on: February 21, 2020, 03:14:55 PM »
OT to the OT:


It is in bad form to publicly post content from a private message on here unless you have the permission of the one who's words you are posting.


This is a community of golfers, after all.


How about when they send you a private message but block your ability to reply?


As I have never encountered that situation, I will decline the invitation to give an answer.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

David Federman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #135 on: February 21, 2020, 03:42:27 PM »
Obviously, there is no right answer here. However, let's look at two other sports. Tennis also has 4 majors (grand slam events) and only Rod Laver (2) and Don Budge have won all four in one season; and no one has otherwise won 4 in a row, over two seasons.  Budge won his in the pre-open era, and Laver won one in the pre-open era and one in the open era. A number of players have won three in a row, and a number have a career grand slam.


If we take what is considered  the baseball record that will never be broken - DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak - that was accomplished during one season. However, baseball considers streaks over two seasons in the same category. And there are a number of lengthy streaks that did carry over into a second season. So, if someone were to break DiMaggio's record over two seasons, baseball would give the record, without an asterisk, to that player.


As for Tiger, the grand slam in one season would be a smidge more impressive than 4 in a row over two seasons, in my opinion. However, if Tiger and Jack could not do it, no one will. I doubt anyone will win 4 in a row again, either.
Jones' grand slam was as impressive in his day, as Tiger's Slam is in modern times. Jones got a ticker tape parade on 5th avenue, right?










Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #136 on: February 21, 2020, 04:52:04 PM »
Jones' was great but Tiger did it backwards and in high heels!

Oops, wrong web-site.

Bogey
« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 04:54:05 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #137 on: February 21, 2020, 05:53:08 PM »
Jones' was great but Tiger did it backwards and in high heels!

Oops, wrong web-site.

Bogey


Bogey,


You bad boy, i'm shocked and appalled to say the least.


P.S.  What'd you say that website address was!  ;)

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #138 on: February 22, 2020, 06:09:04 AM »
Thank you Bogey, that made me laugh.


This isn't a thread that I've got particularly hot under the collar about but I have enjoyed it as it's made me look into the record books which is something I enjoy doing anyway. To me it's just obvious that Wood's great achievement of four in a row isn't nearly as great as a (modern era) Grand Slam but if others don't agree then fine. Plenty of other things in the world to get annoyed at.


Niall

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - Tiger Woods Grand Slam
« Reply #139 on: February 22, 2020, 06:28:53 AM »
OT to the OT:


It is in bad form to publicly post content from a private message on here unless you have the permission of the one who's words you are posting.


This is a community of golfers, after all.



The reason I did it was there was absolutely no reason for him to start PM-ing. Nothing in the message was remotely private and it should have been posted on the thread. It is not something I have done before but in this case it needed doing to avoid my PM being blocked up by unwanted message from Erik.


I am sorry you are so affronted by it.


TL

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