Holes experts play improperly?

[David Harshbarger]

Pete, No, but flattening slopes, destroying Artists work(#14), is. I believe they said the 11th is next for the scalpel.


A. G. - "But my takeaway is that if you see everybody playing a hole a particular way at the professional level, that IS the way to play the hole, at least that day.

That brings us around to the 10th @ Shinny. I'm convinced that bombing it over the hill is a huge mistake. I've only seen the hole played under US Open conditions. But Koepka's play there in this last open perfectly illustrated how wrong the rest of these guys can be. He played it short of the bunker on the inside leg, giving him much more green to pull off the shot. Sure his distance to hole was longer, but the angle improved his chances of holding the green. My point (since I have a hard time expressing it) is that just because they all played it to where they had wedge in hand, it did them no favors.

[Tim_Weiman]

Re: #10 at Shinnecock. Played it only once. My member host very clearly advised me not to try to hit tee shot down the hill.


I don’t recall him giving as much advice on any other hole.

[Kalen Braley]

I think one of the positives about #12 is, it seems to basically play the same whether you are a 15 hitting from the whites, or a 3 hitting from the blues, which is hard Par...easy bogey.

[Adam Clayman]

Re; #12th.


I think it's fairly safe to postulate 12 is a transition hole. If we look at it in that light, It might be the best transition hole ever.


Kalen- I would alter that to be a hard birdie.

[Matt_Cohn]

Where is this "kickplate"? The bunkers are 13 yards apart and the fairway at the entrance to the green is 7 yards wide. Are you talking about the little shoulder of the right bunker? That's 10 feet wide, max, if you have perfect distance from 200 yards, landing the ball in the rough.






If Doak and Ran both say it's a crappy hole and the pro's can't figure out a good way to play it...

[Kalen Braley]

Re; #12th.

I think it's fairly safe to postulate 12 is a transition hole. If we look at it in that light, It might be the best transition hole ever.

Kalen- I would alter that to be a hard birdie.

Adam,

This year certainly was not the case.  Played as the most difficult hole at Pebble relative to par...

Weekly Pro Totals:
Birds - 15
Pars - 116
Bogeys - 84
Doubles - 7
Other - 1

There was almost as many bogeys or worse as there were pars (116-98)...no other hole came close to that.

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, The mound that is covered in rough, on the green side of the bunker, is the kick plate. These pros are hitting 6 or 7 irons and think in terms of 3 feet circles. So, I don't see the problem with aiming on this line as the proper play. It's fun too. Especially when you get the kick.  The miss in the bunker is not a bad spot, nor is just short of it.  If you look closer, you'll see that the mound will also assist in stopping`the forward momentum taking long, out of the equation.


There are lots of opportunities to play shots like this around Pebble. I suppose one just needs the imagination to see them, and the confidence to play them.

[Pete Lavallee]

Adam,


I see your point, that trying to hit the kick plate will give an exhilarating result, but if Matt’s math is right there’s no Tour Pro on the planet aiming for a spot 10 feet wide! Don't forget these guys play for money not thrills. They might aim for a three foot circle but the reality is the best Tour Pros have a 5% miss distance, which translates to 30 feet for a 200 yard shot.


In retrospect both of the leaders might have faired better missing short rather than long on Sunday. Mickelson made an All World par blowing a 5 iron way over the green and hitting a super flop over the tv tower to just in the front fringe. He made the 20 footer for a 3. Taylor didn’t fair as well, deep in the back of the right rear trap and with one foot out of the bunker he failed to get up and down.


If the only option is to hit a 10 foot circle, just to keep the ball on the green, I would say the original intent has been compromised. I’d be very interested to see a photo of the original green; I doubt it left such a small margin for error.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

These pros are hitting 6 or 7 irons and think in terms of 3 feet circles.

Oh my, no.

[Adam Clayman]

Pete, Part of the under appreciation of this hole is the difficulty in calculating the effective yardage. Factors that make this calculation taxing are: The shift in direction of the route and the effect even the slightest wind has, because, other than the 3rd hole tee shot, this is the first shot in this direction you've been asked to hit to this point in the round. Add-in the slight downhill nature of the hole, along with the deception caused by the fronting bunkers, and the players and caddies are greatly challenged at figuring what to hit, let alone where to aim. These factors help identify the nature of the player, their mindset, and the freedom that's evident from creating so many opinions.


Is anyone arguing that Sunday's high score/difficulty on this hole is proof it's a bad hole?

[Adam Clayman]

Re: #10 at Shinnecock. Played it only once. My member host very clearly advised me not to try to hit tee shot down the hill.


I don’t recall him giving as much advice on any other hole.

Tim, This is an awesome addition to this thread. thanx.


Fascinating how a less skilled first timer will respect what's in front of them, over the hubris of a pro.

[Tim Martin]

Re: #10 at Shinnecock. Played it only once. My member host very clearly advised me not to try to hit tee shot down the hill.


I don’t recall him giving as much advice on any other hole.

Tim, This is an awesome addition to this thread. thanx.


Fascinating how a less skilled first timer will respect what's in front of them, over the hubris of a pro.

Adam-Do you prefer an approach misses short or long and is it dependent on pin location? Both are extremely difficult to recover from.

[Adam Clayman]

Tim, I'm not familiar with Shinny. But, I did my own analysis of the hole from schematics and pictures and came up with my opinion on how to properly play the hole, after watching all those pros, in previous opens, with wedges in hand, miss both long and short. Then, when Brooks Koepka played the hole exactly as I had envisioned, winning the last open there, opting for the longer approach, likely off an uphill lie, my opinion was validated. I even queried that other expert, Adam Lawrence, who admitted he just bombs over the hill, just for the added distance, so he could have a shorter club in hand.


I can't seem to find John Low's description of an ideal green, (you know, the one that if built today would end the career of the designer who built it?) but, I believe the 12th at Pebble has most of those elements. Narrow to the line of play and undulating.


Does anyone else find it odd that those that criticize the 12th hole do it with zero reasons why? Opting for few words other than it's crummy, or, the worst par 3 in championship golf.

[Kalen Braley]

Pete, Part of the under appreciation of this hole is the difficulty in calculating the effective yardage. Factors that make this calculation taxing are: The shift in direction of the route and the effect even the slightest wind has, because, other than the 3rd hole tee shot, this is the first shot in this direction you've been asked to hit to this point in the round. Add-in the slight downhill nature of the hole, along with the deception caused by the fronting bunkers, and the players and caddies are greatly challenged at figuring what to hit, let alone where to aim. These factors help identify the nature of the player, their mindset, and the freedom that's evident from creating so many opinions.

Adam,

I think you've inadvertently created an argument here that works against your main assertion.  All of the things to factor in on 12, and you think the pros are aiming for a 3 or 10 foot wide spot?  At that yardage its an absurd ask even for the best in the world.

P.S.  I don't think 12 is a bad hole, but I sure as hell don't think its a good one.  Mediocre at best.

[JESII]

Adam,


Is it all possible that this is the ultimate in homerism?


I'm not sure if you'd ever called it home, but you likely have more time there than 99.99% of golfers...


This hole offers nothing that would be worth emulating in creating a golf hole. It doesn't meet the standard for playability, flexibility, interest or attractiveness.


Your lone virtue is this secret kick plate the size of a dinner table...in my small house...I wonder, if that level of precision is required for success, why not just aim for the pin?


The notion that this hole is the greatest anything...actually, the notion of debating whether this hole is the greatest anything feels like a trap from Mucci or Kavanaugh...or both.

[Bob Montle]

Billy Casper didn't aim for the green in all 4-rounds of one particular par-3 at Winged Foot one year ...... and won himself a US Open.
There's a chapter about this kind of thing in Tommy Armours book, 'How to play your best golf all the time'. Worth reading.
atb

Andra Kirkaldy wrote that he often played long and left of #17 on TOC (approach to green) whenever his money was on the line.

The first two times I played the Redan at N. Berwick my shot was long left, but leaving a relatively easy chip uphill for bogey or possible par.

Sometimes the safest bet is to miss the green and then scramble.

[Adam Clayman]

Bob, Long left on a Redan is almost always the spot to miss.


Sully, If I wasn't critical of other aspects of Pebble Beach, I'd agree to being tagged a homer. As far as that characterization in your last line, someone calling it the worst, is just as guilty, if not more Kavanaughesque. Besides, Since I have yet to play them all, I offered it as a possibility that it could be be a great transition hole. Forgive the hyperbole. 


As I've seen it, this hole is playable for all skill level of player, and clearly, challenging to the best.


Kalen, My advice to play the line I'm describing doesn't demand a specific distance to the kick plate. Playing to the apron opening, might be boring golf for a pro, but with OB looming close to the right, it's a proper risk reward shot. You flirt with the danger and get rewarded, or not. 


What I'm sensing is a reluctance to acknowledge just how fallible these purported best in the world can be at analyzing specific holes and situations.  And, how limiting people are in their appreciation of good old fashioned shotmaking. High and soft, only works on this hole if the green is receptively soft, and/or,  you land the ball anywhere past middle of the green, with spin. That's about a 6 yard swath extending all the way across the green. Too small?

[JESII]

Adam,


This thread feels more about the pros lack of imagination than the merits of the 12th hole.


Would this hole, as is, improve any other highly regarded course?






Did just look back at the thread title...and you’re forgiven! It’s always been about those boys not getting it. Ha

[Erik J. Barzeski]

What I'm sensing is a reluctance to acknowledge just how fallible these purported best in the world can be at analyzing specific holes and situations.

I sense a reluctance in you to consider that you may not be correct about aiming for a tiny "kick" area off the green. PGA Tour pros get things wrong from time to time, and always have, but I don't know that they are here. Not with the numbers of people consulting with them these days, etc. The course did just host a U.S. Open, too, and the holes were analyzed quite a bit just a year ago.

I haven't actually plotted points and done the math, but I think it's highly unlikely that "the play" is to do as you've suggested.

[Adam Clayman]

I'm not extolling greatness in the hole. I am calling out those who fail to appreciate it for what is, what's in the ground and how best to approach playing the tee shot to avoid its trappings. If ego won't let you aim away from the hole, how is it the holes fault?


As for the worst one shotter in championship golf ... they still play majors at Hazeltine. Don't they?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I'm not extolling greatness in the hole. I am calling out those who fail to appreciate it for what is, what's in the ground and how best to approach playing the tee shot to avoid its trappings. If ego won't let you aim away from the hole, how is it the holes fault?

I don’t think aiming at a tiny area in the rough is at all the “best way” to play that hole.

And I’m all for aiming away from the hole. But rarely am I for aiming at a six foot area or an area off the putting surface.

[Niall C]

In relation to pro's, maybe we also have to consider how good some of these guys are at scrambling, hence where for you and I there might be the world of difference in being a bunker as opposed to having to go over a bunker, for them the difference might not be that great that it would influence their shot. Basically the level of potential penalty might not be enough to dissuade them from a course of action. I haven't read all the posts in this thread so apologies if that has been said before.

Niall

[Niall C]

I marshalled at an Open qualifier where I had to keep score of groups playing a 220 yard par 3 that had a severely benched green with gorse hard on the left and a difficult chip from the right while over the back was just jungle.

Of the first 13 groups of 3, only one player was up. Everyone else was short. Admittedly it was a horrible cold, wet and windy day but players weren’t short because they didn’t have enough club. It was just the way they saw the hole. In terms of scoring, there were no birdies and it took until the 12th group before any group registered 3 pars. I recall lots of bogeys but very few double bogeys and certainly nothing worse.

At the same event I spent time watching them play a long straight par 4 with thick gorse running up the length of the right hand side. On the left was a fairway to the parallel hole going the other way. The top amateurs who were familiar with the hole from playing top amateur events generally played for the parallel fairway on the left and away from the gorse. The professionals, particularly where they were playing with other pro’s, played for the “proper” fairway and risked losing a ball. I don’t think playing to the other fairway actually occurred to them.

What I took from all that, was that these top players are pack animals and will be heavily influenced by each other; that they aren’t always right but have to go through the same learning process the rest of us do; and that they take a definite penalty shot much more seriously than potential dropped shot depending on their scrambling ability.

Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Niall makes a good point about elite players and how the brilliance of their short games and recovery play allows them to be more aggressive with their approaches into greens. The 60* wedge, green surrounds prepared to higher standards plus consistent bunkers and bunker raking has I would suggest also contributed to this.
Kind of fits into what Tom Doak wrote awhile ago about Brooks Koepka’s general game plan thoughts as well.
Atb

[Adam Clayman]

Thanks for adding to the discussion on failability. I suppose if it's too much to ask these guys to learn the rules, it is way too much to expect them to read a golf course properly. Or at least when the hole/shot asks a more complicated question.


Erik, In attempt to get you to stop re reiterating your point, I'll rephrase. Under the conditions present Sunday, if you want a better than not chance at making a 1, or, a 2, hit that mound. I don't care if it is on the first bounce, the 2nd or third.