[Jeff_Brauer]

In pure modern design theory, none, almost by definition.


There are always a few exceptions, of course, and the mention of a diagonal helps, but in general, the straight lay up or bomb it over the creek hole is not that strong strategically.

[MCirba]

In pure modern design theory, none, almost by definition.


There are always a few exceptions, of course, and the mention of a diagonal helps, but in general, the straight lay up or bomb it over the creek hole is not that strong strategically.

And yet...


There has been a pretty strong contingent of holes named so far, including some quite famous classics.

[Ed Brzezowski]

The 6th at Stonewall slipped my mind. Truly is a killer hole in may regards.

[Tom_Doak]

In pure modern design theory, none, almost by definition.


There are always a few exceptions, of course, and the mention of a diagonal helps, but in general, the straight lay up or bomb it over the creek hole is not that strong strategically.

And yet...


There has been a pretty strong contingent of holes named so far, including some quite famous classics.

Yes, and thank you.  There are a lot of concepts like this that get written out of the architectural playbook because they have been found wanting by conventional thinkers or people who want to be liked.  But when you do encounter an example of one, it really forces you to think.


It's kind of like calling football plays; once the stats people dismiss an idea as ineffective, it is more likely to work, due to the element of surprise. 😉

[Peter Pallotta]

In pure modern design theory, none, almost by definition.

There are always a few exceptions, of course, and the mention of a diagonal helps, but in general, the straight lay up or bomb it over the creek hole is not that strong strategically.

Interesting, JB.
I think 'architectural strategy' is over-rated; there is hardly anything ever all that complicated or interesting (especially on the second & subsequent play). But I think 'psychological strategy' is under-rated (especially since the # of plays doesn't negate it at all). On the hole I described, it's all psychological: do I feel confident that today I can and will hit a very good fade with my driver, and clear the creek, and leave myself a short iron and the chance for birdie; or do I allow myself to admit defeat as I stand on the tee, play safely with a hybrid, and then know that with a 5 iron in my hand to a well bunkered and slightly elevated green I'll likely be scrambling for par. Works the same way -- and just as well -- every time, with variations because of the wind. And then it also calls for hitting good shots. What else does a reasonable man need to be reasonably happy? 

[Thomas Dai]

Many a fine crossing ditch will have likely been removed by installing pipes. And not necessarily for golf shot-hazard reasons but to simplify maintenance and reduce wet areas nearby. Ditches are heavy on maintenance time and time is money.
Atb

[MCirba]

How about that first tee shot at one Cobbs Creek , its all about the angles


or will be !

Archie Struthers,


Are you doing that mind-reading thing again?   

[Jeff_Brauer]

Thomas,


That was true for a long while, but harder now with environmental regulations.


Peter,


I remember discussing cross hazards with Tommy N years ago, specifically in regards to Hell's Half Acre.  I guess creeks are better than elongated sand bunkers crossing the fw, because there is only a small distance where a shot can fall in the water.  But, my defense was that a subtle choice, caused by gradual narrowing or angled fw seems to be more thought provoking than an either or type choice of a crossing creek.


Just my opinion.

[Bernie Bell]

#1 at Seven Oaks, RTJ in Hamilton NY, fits the description (link to aerial with measurement tools below).  Slightly elevated runway tee, from the "members" (maroon) mark, the card says 405, but I think it's more like 425-30 along the most popular line. Downhill tee shot toward a visible creek crossing on a diagonal about 245 yards on the left and 280ish on the right.  The second shot is uphill to a very tricky green, usually pinned on the top shelf, which breaks hard left to right.  And a shot not reaching the shelf will roll back down to the front of the green, and 18 inches deep is problematic.  A big hitter can carry the creek, but if it's hit straight over the shortest carry, or with a draw, it will end up on the left side, for a much shorter (100-120) shot but at a more difficult angle.  There's loads of room to the right off the tee, and a better line to the green, but then you generally have a 170-190 yard, very difficult, second shot.  Is it a "great hole"?  I'd be curious what others think.  Surely no gentle handshake to start the day.  But over the years it's been a great playoff hole, especially with A/B players in alt shot.


https://course.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/course/course/sevenoaksgc/holemap.htm?hole=1&next=overview.htm%231

[MCirba]

Royal St. George's #14 is another that comes to mind.  Recall Langer running afoul.of that hole.

[James Reader]

16 North Berwick... not much of an angle...old fashion can you make the carry or not...mind you the green helps a bit to make the hole great 😎

Ciao

Or you can just run it over the bridge Sean 

[Tom_Doak]

 I guess creeks are better than elongated sand bunkers crossing the fw, because there is only a small distance where a shot can fall in the water.

Yes, that's one issue with buffer zones and other environmental regs of recent years - they increase the carry distance over the creek by several yards on either side.  On the Stonewall hole we got them to let us weed-whack and sod around the creek but that was 28 years ago, might not happen now.

[Michael Felton]

Royal St. George's #14 is another that comes to mind.  Recall Langer running afoul.of that hole.

I was thinking of this one, plus 18 at RCP. Issue is I'm not sure either is realistically carryable. 18 at RCP maybe by the long guys, but 14 is a looooooong way.


I remember watching Tiger at Troon play 16 three days running. Wind slightly hurting. I watched twice from the tee and once from the fairway. From the fairway it was almighty lash in the distance, wait 7ish seconds and then thunk the ball landed on the fairway about 10 yards over the ditch. From the tee it was almighty lash in the foreground, then watch the ball fly and wait for the bounce when it came.


Incidentally, the 1st at Swinley Forest I heard the ditch there used to be further up, but they moved it closer to the tee because the wife of the guy that ran the place couldn't make the carry anymore.

[Bret Lawrence]

Shuttle Meadows 4th hole is a good example of this.  The creek meanders down the left side of the fairway before it bisects the fairway in the driving zone.  There is another narrow creek/ditch that runs along the right side of the approach and around the back of the green.  It is a very interesting tee shot and one of my favorite on the course.

[Pete_Pittock]

Suez Canal 14th at Royal St George. Was going to mention 16 Royal Troon but was beaten the the punch. Eastmoreland 16 has the creek defining the dogleg but modern tech kills that for the big players, but not mqe.  Also 14 there

[mike_beene]

Second hole at Southern Hills. Also, part of ditch on 18 is uncovered.

[Pat Burke]

Would second Carnoustie


Saw a couple guys hit it over the burn on #1 on TOC


Pretty soon #1 at Riviera

[Thomas Dai]

The Barry Burn and other ditches at Carnoustie come into play a few times, although not all cross the fairway at the usual driving zone distance - 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 10, 12, 16, 17, 18 etc.
And the crossing burn at the 10th received some unexpected tee-shot business at last years Open although that probably says more about the current ball/equipment situation than the burn itself.


One of the great skills in golf used to be judging the distance with the naked eye how far away is a hazard like a crossing ditch and then laying-up or going-for-it accordingly, especially in the wind or on variable firmness fairways. Less of a skill nowadays what with yardage books, rangefinders, sat-nav data etc.


atb

[Sean_A]

16 North Berwick... not much of an angle...old fashion can you make the carry or not...mind you the green helps a bit to make the hole great

Ciao

Or you can just run it over the bridge Sean 

That play is reserved for born and bred Scots. 😎

Ciao

[Stewart Abramson]

I second the 6th at Stonewall.  I just played it this fall, and my tee shot landed in said creek.  Distance measuring devices are not allowed there, and my caddy was 250 yards away in the fairway watching as my ball splashed down.  He was not the best at providing any local knowledge, and I'm not sure he was even a golfer.   Also, I'm still longing for my gap wedge that went MIA that day!

#6 at Stonewall - Elverson PA - Tom Doak. 


Creek cuts through the landing zone, shorter carry on the left but much more difficult approach.

Stonewall Old #6 downhill tee shot must navigate windy stream



Stonewall Old #6 lay up short of stream


flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/albums/72157711357966468/with/48906648367/  - Stonewall Old Pix

[Stewart Abramson]

Many a fine crossing ditch will have likely been removed by installing pipes. And not necessarily for golf shot-hazard reasons but to simplify maintenance and reduce wet areas nearby. Ditches are heavy on maintenance time and time is money.
Atb

There are many that have been buried using pipes. This is the only one I can recall having seen that was covered in a mesh that allows balls to jump over or roll back like in ski-ball, rather than drop into the crossing hazard.



Portsalon #18 screened in burn crosses fairway

[Adam T]

I believe the 1st at Old Town Club would fit the bill here. From the tees I have played, the creek crosses roughly 260 on the left and maybe 240 on the right. After such a steep downhill slope, the severely uphill second shot is no joke.

Others that come to mind:

• Okemo Valley Golf Club, VT, #12: The green winds its way from the left hand side of the green diagonally across this fairway in one of the most beautiful settings for the game I have experienced.
• Keney Park Golf Course, CT, #2: A creek running at the player teeing off adds all kinds of interest to the tee shot on this double-dogleg par five forcing serious decision making early in the round (lay-up or hit a seriously sweeping left-to-right shot).
• Worcestor Country Club, MA, #1: Similar to Cob's post earlier about The Orchards, a creek forces the player to lay up on the first shot of this excellent Ross course leaving a mid to long iron into an intimidating green.
• Hunter Memorial Golf Club, CT, #1: Only the biggest hitters will be able to cross the diagonal creek on the left hand side, contending with a carefully grown tree.
• Cape Fear Country Club, NC, #3: Another Ross design - the creek here adds interest to this potentially reachable uphill par five
• Agawam Hunt Club, RI, #3: Creeks bisect the fairway in the driving zone AND in the layup zone on this par five. Easily my favorite hole on this golf course. The 13th, another strong hole with a narrow/deep green also has a creek which bisects the landing zone.

While of course debatable, I would deem each of these to be great holes in context.

[Thomas Dai]

The Old Stonewall 6th photo posted highlights the design-maintenance point I was attempting to make above.
The curly diagonal stream is fine from the point of view of playing golf amongst other reasons for increasing the effective hazard area without resorting to a pond or just fairway. The photo doesn't show enough close-up detail however, but it would seem that such curly features are generally quite maintenance intensive - longer length than straight, curly banks get eroded, inability to get tight to the edges with a mower, level of strimmer work required, debris retention etc.
Don't get me wrong, I quite like features like this but there needs to be balance and unless monitored closely over time maintenance practices tend to slowly amend some features especially if money and resources come under scrutiny.




Nice photo of the wire mesh cover over the footpath to/from the beach at Portsalon's 18th hole. It might not be the most visually attractive feature but it does the job nicely. There is of course another crossing ditch further up the hole, across the front of the green.

atb

[Sean_A]

I may be mistaken, but I think this thread is partially about exploring why there are so few great holes with a water course that must be crossed off the tee. I struggled to come up with examples when my initial thinking was that there must be loads of such. The only solid example I came up with was 16 at N Berwick and I am not convinced water enhances the hole. Though I disagree with Tom, one can see the hazard from the tee and know if their shot is short... or long of the water. The only aspect which makes the water intriguing is the carry can be in doubt, especially into the wind. However, into that same wind, if one lays up the green isn't likely reachable. I spose this question is at the heart of any well placed water course for a tee shot. To me it's like any feature, don't overuse it and things are fine. Good architecture makes golfers uncomfortable on a few tee shots.

Ciao

[Matt_Cohn]

I may be mistaken, but I think this thread is partially about exploring why there are so few great holes with a water course that must be crossed off the tee.

Let's say a creek crosses at 240-250 off the tee. To attempt the carry, you'd want to feel confident of flying the ball 260 so you have some margin for error. Therefore the drive would probably go 280 total. If you can't make the carry, you'd have to lay up safely short, maybe 220-230 max. So a small difference in carry ability leads to a 50-60 yard difference in approach length.


Maybe that's okay occasionally, but it's probably not ideal for it to happen a whole lot.


In most cases it's not really a risk-reward; it's either you can do it or you can't, which is somewhat less interesting.

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