[Wayne_Kozun]

An interesting story here:  https://p6rgolf.com/blog/most-important-course-canada by Andrew Harvie on the question - what is the Canadian equivalent to NGLA.  The answer he comes up with is the Toronto Golf Club course built in 1912 which was designed by Colt.

[Ronald Montesano]

Cannot argue. Can't believe GA was mentioned as a possibility; fortunately, it was dismissed out of hand.


I would love to see Toronto and St. George's some day. Not a long drive for me. When our girls compete against the Havergals, Bishop Strachan's, Appleby's and Ridley's of the CISAA, I often dream of playing an event over one of the storied courses.


Does Ladies Golf Club of Toronto figure in the equation? That's the only one not mentioned here, from "the era," that would intrigue me.


rm

[Wayne_Kozun]

I haven't played the Ladies club but I don't think it is ranked all that highly.


Toronto was chosen in this instance as it is the first excellent golf club in the country, just as NGLA has similar status in the US.  It was also home to many of the influential people in the game in Canada.

[Bob Jenkins]

Interesting. Living on the west coast, I have not had the pleasure of playing many Ontario courses mentioned, save for Glen Abbey. Even without having seen the classic courses mentioned, I agree with Ronald and am surprised to see the author would consider Glen Abbey as one of the most "important courses" in Canada. I suppose that is because Golf Canada owns (or owned) the site and decided to play multiple Canadian Opens on that site, hence, exposure. From an architectural point of view, there are a few interesting holes on the back nine but not much more.


Toronto GC looks fascinating. From pics of Hamilton, it seems very special and should be considered.


I am not sure what qualities would make any course the most important on a national basis. I would think the most appropriate would be the most "prized" course designed by a Canadian? A course we are proud to say is Canadian. That would have to be a Thompson, I expect. We are fortunate in the west to have Capilano, Banff and Jasper and any of those three would be the most important or prized in the west.


Regards


Bob J

[Ian Andrew]

I've thought about this for a while.


Toronto GC had the most influence over the future of golf course architecture. But is that the most important course? Is the first course on Mount Royal the most important because it begins Canadian Golf? Is St. Andrew's in Toronto the most important because it was a privately owned public golf course and hosted multiple Canadian Opens? It was famous for unsegregated play when there was still segregation in Toronto.


I think Toronto Golf is a fine answer, but I'm not so certain its the only one.

[Sean_A]

Ian


I do question the idea of most important course is the first. What if that course hasn't existed for 100 years?  Is it still most important?  To me, there have to be other compelling reasons to decide which is most important. 

Ciao

[Jeff_Mingay]

I think Drew's right. When the Toronto Golf Club opened its new Colt course, visiting golfers saw the possibilities in this country for the first time, and wanted comparable courses for their home clubs. Colt couldn't fill those requests, so golf clubs throughout the province of Ontario turned to TGC's head pro George Cumming - and later, his partner, Nicol Thompson - to design and build courses, which subsequently launched the career of Nicol's younger brother, Stanley. Cumming and the elder Thompson were involved with the development of Colt's courses at Toronto and Ancaster (Hamilton).


I love the Colt course at TGC. But, there may be better courses in Canada. Historically though, Toronto is Canada's most important golf course.

[Ronald Montesano]

I was in Crystal Beach and Ridgeway this morning, so I feel an affinity with this thread. I hope that more neighbors post here. I believe that each word written herein, is accurate and evolves the discussion. I agree that there doesn't have to be "one," but I appreciate each person making a case for a "one." I used to want to see the Devil twins in the Metro area, but now I'd love to one day see Ancaster, TGC, StG, and Missi. That would be quite the 4-pack to photograph.

[Jeff_Mingay]

If visiting the Toronto area to see/play golf courses, the Toronto Golf Club, St. George's and Hamilton are the right places to start. Mississauga has interesting history, an impressive old clubhouse, but it's a good course with some fine holes that simply doesn't quite compare to the other three mentioned, here.

[Daryl David]

Jeff,


Agree with those three. What do think of Scarboro?  Is it worth a look as the only Tillinghast in Canada?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Daryl,


Scarboro is excellent, one of my favourite courses in Canada. Compared to Toronto, Hamilton and St. George's, it's compact and quirky, but still super fun to play with a bunch of memorable holes. Scarboro also has interesting history, and a really cool old clubhouse - one of my favourites, anywhere.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Jeff,


Agree with those three. What do think of Scarboro?  Is it worth a look as the only Tillinghast in Canada?

Ian is somewhat conflicted on that, as am I

[Wayne_Kozun]

I have been a member at Scarboro for 20 years and Ian Andrew did renovation work on the course about a decade ago with assistance from Gil Hanse.


Here is a course tour by Mark Saltzman from 2012
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=50683.25


edit - George Cumming, mentioned above in Jeff Mingay's post, was the original architect of Scarboro.  The impetus for building the course was the change in location from Toronto Golf Club.  It was located in the east end of the city, near Woodbine Ave and Kingston Rd, but moved to Mississauga, which is west of the city, in 1912.  East enders, led by prominent stockbroker A.E. Ames decided they needed a replacement golf club which led to Scarboro.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I am not sure what qualities would make any course the most important on a national basis. I would think the most appropriate would be the most "prized" course designed by a Canadian? A course we are proud to say is Canadian. That would have to be a Thompson, I expect. We are fortunate in the west to have Capilano, Banff and Jasper and any of those three would be the most important or prized in the west.

You are leaving out Victoria GC which is a wonderful course built by AV Macan.  Surely it is one of the most important courses in the West.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Wayne and Bob,

Royal Colwood played a "more important" role than Victoria, early on. Macan's work at Colwood resulted in the first course out west (Canada and the United States) to compare to the best elsewhere, truly showing western golfers what was possible. But, Colwood had a regional effect, not a national one.


Victoria was comparatively rudimentary in 1913, when Colwood opened for play. Macan created the Victoria course we know today 10-12 years later, about 1925.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Thanks Jeff.  I haven't been in Victoria in a while so the courses may have changed in recent years, but I far preferred Victoria to Colwood.  Maybe I am just a sucker for scenery and quirkiness!

[Jeff_Mingay]

Wayne,


And, that's perhaps the greatest thing about VGC vs. Colwood: they're very different courses, and both very good.

[Bob Jenkins]

Jeff and Wayne,


Wayne, I fully appreciate your affection of Victoria. Quirky, beautiful and interesting from an architectural point of view. I met up with Jeff, probably five or six years ago when he was working on the restoration of bunkers, green surrounds, etc. and it was very interesting. A few years later I was privileged to play Victoria again with everybody's friend, Bill McBride, and Kathleen once Jeff had done even more work. A wonderful golf experience was even better after Jeff's work.


I checked back in Mike Riste's biography of A.V. Macan to make sure and Mike confirmed that Macan arrived in Victoria in 1910, well after the course had opened in 1893, having been laid out by a group of the original members. Macan was a long term member at Victoria and oversaw renovations in 1923 and 1955 although it is not clear to me whether he altered the routing or made changes to individual holes.


Victoria is not long and needn't be long. It is unique and quirky, sort of like the City of Victoria. The views from the course towards the Olympic mountains in Washington are outstanding.


I would love to meet up with you guys over there some day!


Bob J

[Jeff_Mingay]

Thanks for your compliment, Bob.


Victoria was a very different course before Macan's 1923-25 work, when he basically created the layout that's played today. In fact, between 1893 and 1925, VGC members played three or four different 18-hole courses laid out over the same property. Macan's layout is a combination of holes from those older courses with a few new ones linking the current routing together.


In 1955, Macan shortened the 13th hole for safety reasons. Thirteen was a potentially drivable hole where the tee shot was played blind over a ridge (current #13 green site) to a "double green" shared with the adjacent 18th hole. He also built a new green at the par 5 12th that was despised by a group of vocal members mainly because it tipped front-to-back, falling away from approaching golfers. That's one of only two greens that have physically been altered since Macan's days at VGC. The other is #16, which we hope to restore some day.

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