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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
 https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/morrison-wayne-a-comparison-and-contrast-of-the-donald-ross-and-william-flynn-routing-plans-for-the-country-club-of-York/

Wayne Morrison's newest contribution to GolfClubAtlas represents a f-a-s-c-i-n-a-t-i-n-g comparison of William Flynn's proposed routing for Country Club of York against Donald Ross’s that was actually implemented.

The storyline is one that is not often repeated. Here are two grand masters, both renowned for their superb ability to route. They are given the identical parcel of land and each produces a routing, the documents of which have weathered the test of time. In theory, it would hardly be surprising if the two routings had multiple points in common but they have shockingly few. Indeed, they share only two (!) similar playing corridors in the same direction.

Wayne and his co-authors Messers Crosby, Disher and Green (Andrew Green is the consulting architect at CCY) show how Ross radiates holes from the flat central plateau that Flynn uses to build ... a practice field! Meanwhile, Flynn eschewed the central plateau and headed into the most rambunctious portion of the property to build holes with the most convoluted land tending to be in the middle of the holes. As Wayne notes, Flynn focuses on the northeast ridge which ' serves as a hub for several holes that traverse the severest topographical features on the property.' Flynn was also unafraid to build greens in some of the low-lying areas. Meanwhile, Ross shies away from the property's most rugged portion, sometimes sticking closer to the perimeter where the land was tamer and then layered on some pretty darn zippy greens.

After you peruse this presentation, I imagine you will agree with their conclusion that Ross's course was easier to walk and Flynn's would have been more dramatic. Which would you prefer? Happily, there is no correct answer, which helps explain why golf architecture is endlessly fascinating. Heck, the answer might even vary with your age. This case study also might prompt you one rainy day to muse about what Flynn would have done at Seminole and Ross at Shinnecock Hills, for instance. Impossible to imagine either being better but … still, this piece sets in motion some mental gymnastics.

So much of a course's quality hinges on its routing but it's a subject that is only now coming to the fore. Everyone awaits Tom Doak's long forthcoming book on what is arguably architecture's single most important - and least discussed - subject. For now, have fun and dig your teeth into this analysis (which is somewhat shorter  ;D than Wayne and Tom Paul’s 2,400 page disc entitled The Nature Faker on William Flynn). It is intellectually stimulating even if, like me, you have never been to the Country Club of York.

You might think Flynn was from Mars and Ross from Venus, which simply wasn’t the case. Both shared far more in common (great routers, adept at shifting hole directions, low profile tees, move minimal dirt from tee to green, fit bunkers into landforms where possible, great green complexes, strategy) than not. Bottom line: Their courses always looked at peace with the land and they both found ways to do so here, albeit in wildly different ways.

Best,

P.S. This kind of compare and contrast is made for GolfClubAtlas - if anyone has something similar, please, please, please shoot me an email.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 09:43:28 PM by Ran Morrissett »

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
 8) ;D




Great stuff....thanks

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Great piece of writing and research.  Thank you for sharing.


If you haven't taken the time to read and follow along with the different routings you really should. The Flynn routing is really pretty amazing. He lays out a dramatic par-3 across a stream cascading down a ravine to a green set on a knob.  It's on a part of the course that Ross completely avoids and remains a small forest the current routing plays around.  It's one of a number of excellent contrasts between the two plans. 


Great stuff!
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Between the Flynn courses listed plus Cherry Hills, could we argue that William Flynn may have been the best at utilizing a creek for golf? Both for better (interest) and worse (flooding).
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Peter Pallotta

Great piece of writing and research.  Thank you for sharing.

If you haven't taken the time to read and follow along with the different routings you really should. The Flynn routing is really pretty amazing. He lays out a dramatic par-3 across a stream cascading down a ravine to a green set on a knob.  It's on a part of the course that Ross completely avoids and remains a small forest the current routing plays around.  It's one of a number of excellent contrasts between the two plans. 

Great stuff!

Yes. As well-laid out as the maps/topos/routings were, they would've all been Greek to me if not for the clear writing & descriptions. 

I know I'm bad at 'reading' such topos/routings, but I sometimes wonder if the decision-makers back then were all that much better at it than me, i.e. if they could in fact see the strengths and weaknesses of the two proposals, and imagine/compare the 'feel' of the resulting golf courses based on one routing over the other.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 09:14:40 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/morrison-wayne-a-comparison-and-contrast-of-the-donald-ross-and-william-flynn-routing-plans-for-the-country-club-of-York/

Wayne Morrison's newest contribution to GolfClubAtlas represents a f-a-s-c-i-n-a-t-i-n-g comparison of William Flynn's proposed routing for Country Club of York against Donald Ross’s that was actually implemented.

The storyline is one that is not often repeated. Here are two grand masters, both renowned for their superb ability to route. They are given the identical parcel of land and each produces a routing, the documents of which have weathered the test of time. In theory, it would hardly be surprising if the two routings had multiple points in common but they have shockingly few. Indeed, they share only two (!) similar playing corridors in the same direction.

Wayne and his co-authors Messers Crosby, Disher and Green (Andrew Green is the consulting architect at CCY) show how Ross radiates holes from the flat central plateau that Flynn uses to build ... a practice field! Meanwhile, Flynn eschewed the central plateau and headed into the most rambunctious portion of the property to build holes with the most convoluted land tending to be in the middle of the holes. As Wayne notes, Flynn focuses on the northeast ridge which ' serves as a hub for several holes that traverse the severest topographical features on the property.' Flynn was also unafraid to build greens in some of the low-lying areas. Meanwhile, Ross shies away from the property's most rugged portion, sometimes sticking closer to the perimeter where the land was tamer and then layered on some pretty darn zippy greens.

After you peruse this presentation, I imagine you will agree with their conclusion that Ross's course was easier to walk and Flynn's would have been more dramatic. Which would you prefer? Happily, there is no correct answer, which helps explain why golf architecture is endlessly fascinating. Heck, the answer might even vary with your age. This case study also might prompt you one rainy day to muse about what Flynn would have done at Seminole and Ross at Shinnecock Hills, for instance. Impossible to imagine either being better but … still, this piece sets in motion some mental gymnastics.

So much of a course's quality hinges on its routing but it's a subject that is only now coming to the fore. Everyone awaits Tom Doak's long forthcoming book on what is arguably architecture's single most important - and least discussed - subject. For now, have fun and dig your teeth into this analysis (which is somewhat shorter  ;D than Wayne and Tom Paul’s 2,400 page disc entitled The Nature Faker on William Flynn). It is intellectually stimulating even if, like me, you have never been to the Country Club of York.

You might think Flynn was from Mars and Ross from Venus, which simply wasn’t the case. Both shared far more in common (great routers, adept at shifting hole directions, low profile tees, move minimal dirt from tee to green, fit bunkers into landforms where possible, great green complexes, strategy) than not. Bottom line: Their courses always looked at peace with the land and they both found ways to do so here, albeit in wildly different ways.

Best,

P.S. This kind of compare and contrast is made for GolfClubAtlas - if anyone has something similar, please, please, please shoot me an email.
Ran,


Very interesting to say the least. Not to go off on a tangent, but I’m wondering if Sebonack would be a modern example of the same thing. At least kind of.
Tim Weiman

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
One of most insightful and illustrative (literally) pieces I have read on any subject in quite some time.


Ira

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
When Wayne and I walked the course many years ago we were struck immediately by how differently two architects saw the same piece of property. If you have the opportunity to visit CCofY with any of the topo maps in hand, don't pass it up.
During the walk, I took some photos. Many trees have been removed since our visit and the views now are much more dramatic and probably closer to what Ross and Flynn saw.
This photo is the 4th green - I think. Trees behind the green have been removed, exposing the wonderful vista that was in Ross's design.


I believe this is a view of the 18th back toward the tee. It shows the dramatic elevation changes in the eastern area of the property that was so attractive to Flynn.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 06:32:07 PM by Craig Disher »

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0

Craig - the second photo is looking back down the 16th. The trees have been thinned out on the left side of the photo (right side of the fairway) and the entire green has been redone to restore it back to Ross' original drawings. Definitely proof that not all parts of his greens are accessible from all other parts using a putter. The extensive tree thinning/removal you referred to really opened up the visuals although the playing corridors were not affected that greatly.


CC of York is special and one of my favorite days out. It is a very walk-able routing with only the area from 15's tee through 17's tee being a tough hike. The land between Ross' 11th and 14th is densely forested and steep. My assumption was that it was not usable for holes and that necessitated the 14th-15th routing. Obviously not knowing what the land looked like before any build changes what one would think of as usable or not.


This was a wonderful piece that finally allowed me to see the Flynn routing. I had known of it, but had never seen.

When Wayne and I walked the course many years ago we were struck immediately by the how differently two architects saw the same piece of property. If you have the opportunity to visit CCofY with any of the topo maps in hand, don't pass it up.
During the walk, I took some photos. Many trees have been removed since our visit and the views now are much more dramatic and probably closer to what Ross and Flynn saw.
This photo is the 4th green - I think. Trees behind the green have been removed, exposing the wonderful vista that was in Ross's design.


I believe this is a view of the 18th back toward the tee. It shows the dramatic elevation changes in the eastern area of the property that was so attractive to Flynn.



Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
That was a wonderful read, indeed.

I'm fortunate to have played CCofY a couple of times.  It is really good and fun. 

Here are more photos from a June 2014 visit:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/CCofYork/index.html



@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Definitely on my shortlist for 2020.


Well done!
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Greg Holland

  • Karma: +0/-0
This was very well done and interesting to read.  Is there any information available to compare the greens the two proposed?  DJR always provided detailed green drawings.  Did Flynn?  That could add an interesting level of comparison as well.  What impact did the disparate routings have on the green sites and contours? 


Thanks to all that worked on this.  Very interesting. 

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
This was very well done and interesting to read.  Is there any information available to compare the greens the two proposed?  DJR always provided detailed green drawings.  Did Flynn?  That could add an interesting level of comparison as well.  What impact did the disparate routings have on the green sites and contours? 

Flynn did not. However, he provided separate hole drawings for most if not all of his projects that were actually built. The drawings often contained insets that gave detail of the green and surrounding bunkers.

Greg Holland

  • Karma: +0/-0
On my tablet, I cannot read the topo lines very well.  Can an analysis be done of the green sites based on the maps?  As Tom Doak said in his Little Red Book, “If you get the routing right, you get the drainage right, ... and you ought to get the green complexes right because you’re in a good place to build a green.” 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2020, 05:02:55 PM by Greg Holland »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
A great deal of time and effort and research has obviously gone into this piece, this project, so well done to all involved.
Atb

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Incredible piece of work.  Very cool.  Thanks!  Is there any surviving evidence of why the club chose one plan over the other?  Interesting that this thread about 1925 plans is tacked up next the thread about Hunter's 1926 book.

Bill Healy

  • Karma: +0/-0

Morrison, Crosby, Disher, and Green present a terrific discussion of Flynn vs. Ross at CC York.
This is the kind of article that stokes a fire for golf course architecture discussions, and their routing maps and topographical sketches added considerably to the narrative.
It is remarkable how different the Ross and Flynn links are designed on the same land!
I am grateful for this essay, and learned a lot.

The observation that Ross routed holes parallel to slopes and Flynn crossed slopes (and creeks) caught my attention.  This is consistent with how Ross works the land in many of his designs.
It is also consistent with how links golf holes follow the land in Ross’ native Scotland.

The observation that Ross used elevated land for tees and greens is not surprising. 
At Seminole, Ross earned the commission over other well known architects based on his proposed utilization of the sand ridges, which other architects wanted to eliminate.
William Flynn may have been one of the competing architects.

I was not surprised with Andrew Green's comment on the cost-effectiveness of the Ross routing.
In general, Ross presented modest operating budgets for his clients, and his team, Donald J. Ross Associates, were well known to deliver cost effective designs.

Finally, I appreciate the observation that the Ross layout might be an easier walk.
If I am not mistaken, the walk associated with the game was important to Ross.

Gentlemen, Thank you for a stimulating article.

Bill Healy

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
It's definitely an interesting exercise that I enjoyed looking at. In addition to the easier terrain for holes, it also looks like the Ross green/tee walks are shorter. Hard to say very accurately from the images due to the size, but total difference could be a few hundred yards.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
A great read.


It brought to mind the Ross quote that "golf is a pleasure...it's not a penance."


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Peter Pallotta

As Bernie noted, it's interesting to have this thread next to the one on Hunter's book. As I wrote on that thread, it surprised me how 'practical' The Links is -- and how it combines so well the craft/construction of golf courses with the artistic/aesthetic goals. And that relates to this thread/essay -- because rightly or wrongly, one thing I took away from reading it was that Ross' routing 'balanced' the art & craft of gca better than Flynn's did. From reading it, I thought: both routings would've produced lovely and natural looking golf courses, but the Ross version would be easier to maintain, more 'permanent', less prone to flooding and in some ways more 'elastic'.   

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
As Bernie noted, it's interesting to have this thread next to the one on Hunter's book. As I wrote on that thread, it surprised me how 'practical' The Links is -- and how it combines so well the craft/construction of golf courses with the artistic/aesthetic goals. And that relates to this thread/essay -- because rightly or wrongly, one thing I took away from reading it was that Ross' routing 'balanced' the art & craft of gca better than Flynn's did. From reading it, I thought: both routings would've produced lovely and natural looking golf courses, but the Ross version would be easier to maintain, more 'permanent', less prone to flooding and in some ways more 'elastic'.   


What do you think of this summary:


Ross provided a design for a fine golf course that minimizes the impact of the challenging ground.
Flynn provided a design for a fine golf course that maximizes the potential of the challenging ground.

The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ross provided a design for a fine golf course that minimizes the impact of the challenging ground.
Flynn provided a design for a fine golf course that maximizes the potential of the challenging ground.


How about this.


Ross provided a design suited for the everyday club goer.


Flynn provided a design closer to the challenge found at a championship course.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Eric LeFante

  • Karma: +0/-0
Absolutely fantastic piece.


I'm an admirer of Flynn and think Rolling Green is incredibly underrated.


It seemed to me like the Flynn routing would have been so much more memorable and fun to play until I read that his 14th hole went uphill 90 feet! The drop from tee to green at Augusta's 10th is 110 feet so that would almost be like playing Augusta's 10th in reverse. That seems ridiculous. Is this even feasible? Does any hole play that uphill? I'm fairly young and always walk but I don't think I would want to walk that.


« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 11:54:02 AM by Eric LeFante »

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0

It seemed to me like the Flynn routing would have been so much more memorable and fun to play until I read that his 14th hole went uphill 90 feet!


I think the 14th is the par 4 that climbs up out of the ravine.
The 13th is the par 3, and while I can't discern the distance between each line on the contour map, by counting lines it looks like the 13th tee is 1 contour line below the 13th green.
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Peter Pallotta

Ross provided a design for a fine golf course that minimizes the impact of the challenging ground.
Flynn provided a design for a fine golf course that maximizes the potential of the challenging ground.

How about this.

Ross provided a design suited for the everyday club goer.

Flynn provided a design closer to the challenge found at a championship course.


My original 'summary', and then David's and then Sven's, brought to mind again an aspect of gca that we don't often mention around here, i.e.


Intention.


Whether any of our summaries are 'accurate' is almost besides the point (not really, but...): more to the point, I think, is the architect's fundamental intention and priorities in designing a course, e.g.


A championship test or a member's club
Highly dramatic or easier to maintain
Minimizing the challenge of a severe site or maximizing its potential


Reading Mike C's thread, and looking at the 10 and the 8s and the 5s: obviously, lots of factors involved in the quality/rating, but I wonder if one of the more important factors in that 'final score' is what the architect aimed for/intended the course to be.