IMO by Wayne Morrison et al comparing Ross and Flynn at Country Club of York

[MCirba]

If I might, I think Flynn was heavily influenced by men like Hugh Wilson and George Crump, both of who were no strangers to bold, audacious golf holes that bordered on Herculean.   

Imagine playing the 4th at Pine Valley with hickory and facing that steep wall of sand.   These guys were looking to develop champion golfers and they designed courses specifically for that purpose.

Witness the original 6th hole at Cobb's Creek (which we're hoping to restore) from an article by Joe Dey that Joe Bausch discovered a few years back.   It rises 80 feet in the first 150 or so yards before swinging right, following a steep ridge on that side.   Flynn was responsible for building the greens and other man-made features, was a very good player himself, was heavily influenced by the prevailing Philly architectural thinking of the time and thus was not the least bit shy in presenting stark challenges in his designs.

[MCirba]

For uphill steepness, I was also reminded yesterday of the 5th and 8th holes at Merion West.

[Bret Lawrence]

This is an excellent piece. Love the maps and the comparisons. Thank you for sharing. 


Yeamans Hall is another candidate for comparison between Ross and Raynor.  Both architects drew 36-hole plans for Yeamans Hall Club.


Kudos to the authors, this is a terrific piece they put together.


Bret

[Niall C]

Excellent stuff, well done to all involved. Unfortunately I don't know the course so it's hard to get a very real sense of the fundamental differences of the two designs but this essay certainly gives me an inkling of how different Flynn's design would have been.


Niall

[Dan Boerger]

That was a fantastic read ... thanks for your work Wayne!

[Paul Rudovsky]

This article brings back very fond memories.  I had the opportunity to play CC of York in October and immediately classified it as a Hidden Gem.   The greens are classic Ross without being over done (in spite of my 20" birdie putt on #4 that ended up 25' offf line and off the green).  I loved holes 9 (par 4)and 12 (3)....the latter reminding me of a par 3 at Hackensack.  I thought the holes sat perfectly on the land and felt like they had been there forever.  Overall the course very much reminded me of Ross' Aronimink (albeit shorter version).


Unfortunately was playing it on my drive south from Boston to Pinehurst and had to run after the round so do not remember some of the land forms well enough to picture the Flynn holes...except clearly can visualize different use of Ross' #11 through the valley.


In any case, IMO this on his a must play and Wayne's efforts simply make it even more so...

[MCirba]

Played Country Club of York yesterday with Joe Bausch and Matt Frey.   Definitely a challenging piece of terrain to route a course on so indeed a fascinating exercise described here.   Also, a fun course with a number of really distinctive, noteworthy golf holes. 


Here's a 1937 aerial, if Flickr still works these days.

[Ronald Montesano]

Any superintendents or architects wish to chime in, about which of the two designs would present drainage/maintenance issues? Asking for a fiend, not a friend.

[Ronald Montesano]

This is a bit of a "Should have been Flynn" article. How can you say that three holes (14-16 Flynn) form the centerpiece of his design? Is there such a thing as a centerpiece, over the course of 18 holes? Would someone not completely enamored of a local, Philly boy, write that about St. Andrews OC? About NGLA? About any other top course?

[MCirba]

Ron,


Whether there is some advocacy shown here isn't really important to finding interest in the routing differences between two experts faced with 160 feet of elevation change and 80% of it in 20% of the property.

[JESII]

Ron,


Did you really ask if there is a centerpiece section to an 18 hole course?

[Ed Brzezowski]

Played Country Club of York yesterday with Joe Bausch and Matt Frey.   Definitely a challenging piece of terrain to route a course on so indeed a fascinating exercise described here.   Also, a fun course with a number of really distinctive, noteworthy golf holes. 


Here's a 1937 aerial, if Flickr still works these days.

How did you like the long downhill par five? What line did you choose? Lay up or go for it in two?  gives you some great options.  Just rated it, nice place.


ed

[Ronald Montesano]

Ron,


Did you really ask if there is a centerpiece section to an 18 hole course?

No, I declared quite vehemently that there should never be a centerpiece section to an 18-hole course. It is akin to declaring a spotlight or showcase hole, at the expense of the remainder of the holes or course.

[MCirba]

Played Country Club of York yesterday with Joe Bausch and Matt Frey.   Definitely a challenging piece of terrain to route a course on so indeed a fascinating exercise described here.   Also, a fun course with a number of really distinctive, noteworthy golf holes. 


Here's a 1937 aerial, if Flickr still works these days.

How did you like the long downhill par five? What line did you choose? Lay up or go for it in two?  gives you some great options.  Just rated it, nice place.


ed

Hi Ed,

That long downhill par five (#14) is definitely the wildest hole I've ever seen attributed to Donald Ross.   It probably falls about 100 twisting feet from tee to green and as a left handed player with a predominant draw I found the quickly turning left dogleg very awkward from the tee.   I tried to hit a fade but double crossed it and although Matt F. found my ball in the woods I struggled from there.   (Mean Joe B. stated that my ball was probably going to be found at CC of Harrisburg after I hit my tee shot)

On the other hand, Matt laced one with a slight right-handed draw down the left center and was left with only a six iron to the green far below, so I can't say it's an unfair hole.

To get back to the topic at hand, though, it seems to me that both Ross and Flynn made compromises with their respective routings due to the fact that 80% of the 160 feet of elevation change happens on 20% of the property.   Ross spent most of his routing up in and around the highest plateau, such that he created a more walkable routing for the most part, then swung way down along the eastern border for holes 13, 14, 15 before coming back uphill towards the clubhouse.   One might argue that those are the three most awkward holes on the course.   Flynn's routing seems less concerned with walk ability and challenged some of the major slopes directly, without going as far east (and down into the chasm) as Ross.   In a perfect world, it would be fun to play both and contrast and compare but in the case of both architects I find it difficult to imagine either saw the property as ideal for building 18 holes, given the topography.

[Andy Shulman]

I played CC of York yesterday and read about Flynn's design when I got home.  Great stuff!  As Ran noted, it would have significantly ratcheted up the difficulty of walking.  Do not for one minute think the Ross routing is an easy walk, despite The Walking Golfer's "Easy to Walk" rating (https://thewalkinggolfer.com/walkability_ratings_pa.html).  Even some of the downhill walks - such as those from tee to green/fairway on #s 6, 11 and 14 - could leave your quads wobbly by the end of the round on a hot summer day.  Us four dedicated walkers were somewhat relieved when told that unaccompanied guests must take carts.  Does anyone know whether the club had caddies at one time?

My view as a first-timer is that #14 is over the top, although that might change with additional plays and/or a mid-iron to the green for my 2nd shot.

All of that aside, the golf is excellent, the conditioning top notch and the greens very challenging.  We sat in the lounge afterwards and watched several groups have multiple three-putts on #18, their first putts either getting only halfway to the hole or trickling 10+ feet past and, in some case, practically off the green.