[Steve_ Shaffer]

Fenway will co- host stroke play.


Read more:


https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/articles/2020/01/sleepy-hollow-country-club-new-york-golf-2023-u-s-mid-amateur.html

[Jeff Schley]

Great news and well deserved.  I know we have a few members here... how does SH play in mid September?

[David Harshbarger]

Great news and well deserved.  I know we have a few members here... how does SH play in mid September?

September is upstate NY's bonus summer month.  Not unusual to see days in a row of sun, temps in the 70's, dry and clear. 

[Tim Martin]

Sleepy Hollow will be a great walk for spectators especially with the more low key security for a Mid-Am. The way the Hudson River and Palisades come in and out of view throughout the round really showcases the location.

[Rob Marshall]

Great news and well deserved.  I know we have a few members here... how does SH play in mid September?

September is upstate NY's bonus summer month.  Not unusual to see days in a row of sun, temps in the 70's, dry and clear.

That's Upstate?

[goldj]

The second week in September will be more late late Summer than Fall.  Nights will be cooler than in July and August, great weather for growing grass. 

[David Harshbarger]

Great news and well deserved.  I know we have a few members here... how does SH play in mid September?

September is upstate NY's bonus summer month.  Not unusual to see days in a row of sun, temps in the 70's, dry and clear.

I applied NYC rules: Yonkers north is upstate. :-)

That's Upstate?

[Jeff Loh]

Lets hope they don't grow the rough to make it more "challenging."

[SPDB]

There will be so many good vantage points for spectators to take in action on multiple holes from a single spot.


Camping out behind the 5th green will allow you to take in:


  - approach to 2
  - tee ball into 3
  - tee shot on 4
  - approach to 5
  - tee shot on 6
  - approach into 15
  - tee shots on 16


Finding a high area around the halfway house will provide similar action on 4, 7, 12, 13 and 14.

[corey miller]

Yes..grow the rough in an effort to target a certain score. 


Interesting choice of two totally different courses architecturally for the stroke play, but it does beg the question of which type of course/style is better for match play?Why?


  Would hope the USGA would not "split the difference" on maintenance/set-up between the two venues which are both better when  they are maintained dis-similarly.


Then again, I suspect most members are concerned how a course "holds up" 

[Jeff Loh]

It will be a good litmus test to see if the USGA really gets width and angles. But I suspect there are some in the membership who don't want to see anyone go low...

[Tal Oz]

I was fortunate to play Sleepy this September just a day or two after the Lincoln Met PGA. They had cut down the rough from 4" for the tournament to much less but I'd say it was plenty wide.
September in NYC is a wonderful time for golf

https://imgur.com/a/sYErSrY

[Jeff Loh]

Thanks Tal
WOW...4''??
That's a shame. Way too penal and more importantly unnecessary.
Did you inquire as to why they grew it that high?

[corey miller]

Is there any correlation between width of fairways and appropriate height of rough?  Does "plenty wide" somehow have anything to do with height of rough?


In fact, wouldn't wide fairways (with bunkering, and rolling terrain) and preferred angles on almost every hole make high rough even more inappropriate? 


Doesn't narrow fairways and high rough (think Bethpage) encourage players to aim for the middle of the fairway?  Shouldn't courses with wide fairways and preferred angles encourage players to aim for a particular side? 


And then doesn't aiming for a particular side (even with width) become untenable when the rough is punitive? Even with width you force players to hit down the middle? 

[Matt_Cohn]

Lets hope they don't grow the rough to make it more "challenging."

I think you can sleep soundly knowing they will.

[Tal Oz]

4" is what I was told for the Met PGA they held that week. Only one person shot under par, though we shouldn't take Met PGA scores as an indication of what a Mid-Am player will shoot.
@Matt and Jeff, the USGA loves to tinker so it's a safe bet they'll hem those fairways in.
@Corey, my "plenty wide" comment was a poor attempt at saying that the mowing lines looked to be accurate to what members play day in and day out. i.e they didn't grow the rough in for this tourney. As to what they'll do in roughly four years time, who knows.

[David_Tepper]

Matt C. -

I think you have either played in or attended the USGA Am, Mid-Am and 4-Ball. Can you compare how the courses are set up for these events?


I have seen the Olympic Lake for the Open, Am, 4-Ball and Junior Am. The course was set-up with very deep rough for the first two. But the set-up for the 4-Ball and Junior Am was not too different from how the course is for member play.

Is the set-up for the Mid-Am as tough as for the Am?

DT

[Jeff Schley]

Is there any correlation between width of fairways and appropriate height of rough?  Does "plenty wide" somehow have anything to do with height of rough?


In fact, wouldn't wide fairways (with bunkering, and rolling terrain) and preferred angles on almost every hole make high rough even more inappropriate? 


Doesn't narrow fairways and high rough (think Bethpage) encourage players to aim for the middle of the fairway?  Shouldn't courses with wide fairways and preferred angles encourage players to aim for a particular side? 


And then doesn't aiming for a particular side (even with width) become untenable when the rough is punitive? Even with width you force players to hit down the middle?

I see the green complexes are being part of the equation for how fairways/rough are set up.  If greens have bunkers or run offs, particularly from certain angles to pins then the fairways can be wide and the angle of approach being less than desirable is the penalty for the drive, not the rough. If greens are pretty docile without many hazards/run offs and generous in size then I think narrowing fairways and growing rough is more the penalty. We aren't even talking trees yet, which can impinge on the angle as well.

So I view it as a package and more so for parkland courses as links is another ball game in setup and play.

[jeffwarne]

Great news and well deserved.  I know we have a few members here... how does SH play in mid September?

September is upstate NY's bonus summer month.  Not unusual to see days in a row of sun, temps in the 70's, dry and clear.

That's Upstate?

Only for a Long Islander....
Septenber ideal-MET PGA was there this past September-greens ate field alive. One player under par in the best playing PGA Section in the country.

[jeffwarne]

4" is what I was told for the Met PGA they held that week. Only one person shot under par, though we shouldn't take Met PGA scores as an indication of what a Mid-Am player will shoot.

I guess you're basing that on that fact that most Mid "Amateur" winners are former Touring Professionals and most PGA professional work for a living...


10-12 of those MET PGA Professionals played in Majors last year and the guy who finished 11th at Sleepy Hollow at +7 is playing this week in the PGA Tour event in Hawai.(along with a minimum of 5 other events)


Sleepy Hollow played tough that week-firm, fast and windy.
4-5 pins had to be changed by the Committee daily to be playable due to too much speed.
Of course the USGA is involved so there's no guarantees any additional logic will be involved
 
[size=78%] [/size]

[corey miller]

Jeff


Always love your insights on Sleepy Hollow.....not sure the extent to which you know Fenway which is another great selection BUT


Can you comment on "set-up" for the Mid-Am? and perhaps even the best "set-up" for regular member play?


The two clubs seem to provide two different unique challenges ,  which should lead the USGA to provide two different set-ups rather than some "standard rough" which any fool would know would not be appropriate for both courses...


It saddens me that SHCC would have 4' rough for a tournament.  Wouldn't the width of the course be enhanced with less/no rough?


And just so I have some basis... What great Macdondald/Raynor course is best presented with high/higher rough?

[jeffwarne]

Corey.
I don't have a strong opinion on rough for a setup for an elite event.
It really depends upon the course.
Sleepy didn't need the 4 inch rough for the MET PGA as the green speeds, pins and firmness were challenge enough. I would share that thought for a Mid-Am assuming they got perfect weather as we did for the MET PGA.Cool, dry, windy.
What organizers and pundits are often so wrong about are using "winning score" to determine whether a setup is wrong and right.
Even with most penal rough, the winner and contenders are often striping it so it's a non factor on "winning" score, but can be a real issue with "cut score" and "also ran"score, as well as pace of play.


In many cases it makes it easier preventing balls from running away from greens and slowing down hooks off the tee.


The real score determinant for winners is firmness of greens-period. Even fast isn't that much of an issue, though at Sleepy it was.

I really don't think angles matter that much anymore for elite players as the risk (trees, lost ball deep rough) aren't worth what is gained. Mainly because they can stop the ball anyway from the center of a fairway-unless greens are really firm (hard to control weather) and the course is very well designed.

Some rough-say 2-3 inches, is fine with me as it takes the spin off but I'd like to see preferred angles left as fairways for the event-at both courses (15 comes to mind at Fenway)

I just don't have a good enough memory of either course to tell you how it should be set up.
I last played at Fenway also in the MET PGA 4-5 years ago-played well final day after making cut on the number but just can't remember course details when in that mode.

Thoughtfully-is my hope for their set up. With more ways to play the holes than just one or two.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Tad Oz
Your snide remark about Met PGA professionals could not be further off mark!
Aside from a couple mid-Ams who play more golf than even PGA tour pros, and at very high level, the top 10 Met PGA pros would comfortably beat the mid-Ams!
Twenty years ago, when I could crack some eggs playing, and I was never in the top 10 points list, I never was beaten by an elite mid-Am in US Open sectionals!

[Tal Oz]

Robert and Jeff, apologies if I was misinformed on how low the elite Mid-Ams go. However, this brings up a question for you two. If only one Met PGA player went under par in 3 rounds and separated himself from the field by 6 shots, what would a Mid-Am player have needed to win that week? And if as Robert says the top 10 would comfortably beat the Mid-Ams (+7 over 3 rounds) are you really saying it would be closer to +10? If that's the case, then the USGA should expect a very stern Mid-Am test at Sleepy.

Regardless of the nitpicking of scores, Sleepy Hollow was a treat to play in September. By all accounts I've read Gil's work has been well received. I'm always in awe when playing a Macdonald/Raynor course at how big the false fronts are. 2, 3, 6, and 18. And the stretch of 8, 11, 12, and 13 where Gil made the Tillinghast holes more Raynor-esque were pretty big.

[corey miller]

My question for the Met Pga pro's in very basic terms is:


If we stipulate that Bethpage has high punitive rough and narrow fairways...does that leave players to aim for the middle of the fairways regardless of angles?


Fenway, though Tillinghast does not have fairways as narrow as Bethpage (granted much smaller scale) but does have rough a little higher than most clubs. 


What I am really want an opinion on is Sleepy Hollow where angles matter (at least for most), the greens are compelling, and the hole corridors are generous (large scale) and the rumpled fairways are extremely wide.


If the rough at Sleepy Hollow becomes too punitive (like I am told it was at the Met PGA)...doesn't that encourage play to the middle of the fairway? Especially in light of the point Jeff made that angles matter little for better players and the "miss" for aiming for the "preferred side" of a fairway is 4' rough?

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