Nearest Accessible Course You've Dissed, Why, and What are Doing About it?

[David Harshbarger]

This thread has been good timing.  In the last week I played the two nearest courses to where I live.  Both were under $30 to walk 18.


Lagoon Park is a Montgomery city owned course about 10 miles from my current home.  Driving by a couple times before, I had decent expectations going in.  Unfortunately they were not met.  It had rained a couple days before and the course was a bit of a Lagoon.  The greens were uninspiring and it took me nearly 5 hours to play.


Cypress Tree Golf Club is the course on Maxwell AFB and 2-3 miles away.  I had only heard bad things and the course exceeded those expectations.  The greens had some decent movement and a couple holes were quirky good.  I will say a couple holes have a federal prison within a couple yards of the fairway with a relatively low fence and a treeline as the only protection.  I was a bit worried for the guys out in the yard when I stood on the tee.  Luckily my balls stayed out of the prison and caused them no harm but I can't imagine how often golf balls go flying into the prison.  The prisoners also serve as grounds crew for the course.

Both of those sound like worthwhile investments of time.  On the one hand you found out that the Lagoon course practices truth in advertising.  And on the other, you aren't going to forget "stay out of prison" as a swing thought! 


Thanks for sharing.

[Bob Montle]

A nearby course which I diss had two horrible holes, back to back, which ruined the entire course for me.
One is a 110 degree dogleg right par 5.  There are dense woods with a creek visible on the right from the tee.
The drive requires a 180 yd layup with two options.
Hit left to level ground 50 yds from a pond requiring a 170 yd carry, or
Hit straight or right to ground sloping left to right, closer to the pond and requiring a shorter carry over the water
Most golfers elect to place their drives closer to the pond and then must contend with a downhill lie and an uphill shot.
This second shot must clear the pond to where the fairway rises and curves right with dense woods on the right and the green hidden behind the trees.  It is usually played as a layup to where the third can be a short iron into a visible green.

The previous hole is a 400 yd reverse cant dogleft left par four with fairway sloping steeply left to right, starting about 175 yds from the tee.  The problem here is the dense woods on both sides of the fairway.  Unless you can hit a duck hook, most members lay up again with a four or five iron and then hit a wood into the green.  Which, if you miss right by as much as one yard, is a lost ball into the swamp.  Likewise, a ball hit long will roll over the green, down the hill into the creek by the next tee.

My Dad and I had been members for years, and complained about the (unfairness?) of those two holes.  We drew up plans showing how the first could become a par five with a new green on the other side of the creek.  A new tee would turn the awful par 5 into a decent par 4.   Almost everyone who saw the plans liked them.  We formed a committee and a group of twenty members presented our thoughts to the owner.   Who cussed us out, saying that if we didn’t like his course why didn’t we take our games elsewhere.

So we did.

[David Harshbarger]

Dad and I had been members for years, and complained about the (unfairness?) of those two holes. 

Unfairness -> un-fun-ness. 

[David Harshbarger]

What's the nearest accessible course to your home that you have dissed?  You know the one you've driven by, or heard of, but can't be bothered to stop in to try, because, you know...reasons.  What are going to do about it, anything?



Course: Dutchaven Golf Course
Distance: 23.6 miles
Reason: It's a patch of holes on the side of the road that looks uninspiring when I've driven by. 
Why this a bad reason: Mostly because my home course that I love and played far north of 50 times in 2019 is otherwise an uninspiring patch of flat holes.
Action: I'm going with that I will actually go give it a try come spring, with the most likely time being some Saturday afternoon when my course has one of the few outside events that I prefer not to play.

Anyone else?

Not much of note has happened since this post so a quick update....


Saturday afternoon I found my way to Dutch Haven.  $15 for 9 walking. 


This is the kind of course you love when there are no other courses you can get to.


It should be the kind of course a beginner would enjoy.  3 par 3’s, 4 par 4’s under 300 yards, 2 par 5’s under 500.


Sigh...


A round at Dutch Haven suggested many nicknames for the course...


Home of the 150 yard par 3
Home of the sentinel tree short par 4
Home of the top shot pond
Home of the shrunken Ross green


Some observations:


1st hole presents a half-blind 150 yard par 3 to a tiny yet severely contoured green.


2nd has a nice mound obscuring the preferred line on a par 5. Playing away from the mound is safe: there’s an acre of fairway out there but the thick brushy woods by the green now come into play. Generous but crowned green.


3rd presents a 150 yard par 3 to a generous green.


4th is a 290 yard dogleg 4. Dogleg turns left at 210 as fairway enters a tree lined grotto. Moderate sized crowned green is protected by a cavernous and unseen bunker at the back.


5th Introduces the first of The sentinel trees.  200 yards out a massive oak stands just right of the direct line on the 250 yard 4. The forward tees around 130 feature a top shot pond.  Take the you beginners!  Green sits at a nice angle to fairway and is the size of a modest deck.


6th gives us a par 5 to the worlds smallest two-tiered green without a Windmill.  If the designer had Bill Mitchell’s golden book of proportionate golf course design he was reading it upside down.  Seriously the tiers were generously 12x12 and there was a severe roll off on the right side.


6th also had a narrow fairway requiring a plus 200 yard carry to reach.


7th gave us 2 sentinel trees 100 yards from the tee.  The suggested shot that would reach the fairway was a draw through the shoot.  Green was protected by hairy mounds immediately against the green front.


8th presented a blind dogleg on the 250 yard hole.  By blind I mean there was a sentinel tree out about 190, directly on the line of instinct.  This sat left of a hidden pond, which was left of the intended line of charm, a hidden fairway.


9th finished with a 150 yard par 3 to a crowned 15 foot wide green.  Shots well left risked a deep bunker.  Shots just left had rough.


Dutch Haven should be a rural course that provides a pleasant diversion for high handicappers.  I fear though it demands a level of precision few who play it possess.  For those learning the game it’s lesson must be unrelenting servings of frustration.


That said the trash receptacles were brimming with malty empties.  If I played here regularly I would concur: anaesthetics are highly recommended at the Haven.


But ask me if I am glad I played and the answer is most assuredly yes!

[archie_struthers]

 


I've played some awful golf courses in my day but can honestly say the only thing that really makes me diss a place is bad management. Rude employees and staff is the worst.


If you are treated nicely it's almost impossible not to find something to like about the day almost anywhere!

[Tom_Doak]

The course that I would have mentioned on this thread is across town from me.  It's surrounded by condos and homes, which don't look like they were thoughtfully incorporated into the design, at all.


We drove past it on the way back from Crystal Downs the other day and my wife, out of the blue, commented on how awful it looked    and she does not care about golf at all.


My problem with it is that we have too many golf courses in our town, and the thing that led to this one being saved and High Pointe being shut down was exactly the thing that made this one so bad:  the adjacent real estate owners had a financial interest in saving it.

[MCirba]

Congratulations, David H. 


You didn't happen to ask them who designed it, did you?

[Craig Sweet]

So much privilege and elitism in this thread....it's sickening.

[MCirba]

So much privilege and elitism in this thread....it's sickening.

Craig,


I'm not seeing that at all. 


I may be the person who has played the most bad golf courses (and almost certainly the most muni's) in the world.  There is something beautiful and even noble about all of them, even if they are really, really bad.


Off to play a nine hole executive course built atop a former coal strip mine with Joe Bausch.  It's all good.

[Kalen Braley]

Craig,

Poorly run businesses exist in every industry and niche, I don't see why golf would be any different.   Lord knows there are far more restaurants, stores, etc. that I wouldn't give my business too either..

[Greg Smith]

Course:   Black Rock GC (Owned by Washington County, MD)
Distance:  4 miles
Times I've played it:  Once, and that was enough.

Reasons to like it:  This course is billed as "the highest rated municipal course in Maryland".  That's nonsense, but they ARE doing a decent job growing grass there.  The views are also very nice.  And in places the land has a nice amount of movement for golf.  For a rural county course, the clubhouse operation is fairly full-featured.

Reasons to hate it: 

1)  Shrunken greens!  Look at the Google Earth on this one.  The (tiny) greens are barely larger than the bunkers in many cases.  With that kind of shrinkage there's sometimes 20 feet of rough between bunker edges and collars.  And for the most part there's no aprons either, just more rough.  No run-ups allowed apparently!

2)  Narrowed fairways.  Same shrinkage mowing as above, but to a slightly less heinous degree.

3)  Bad hole sequencing.  Holes 1-7 are the nicest part of the course, and the par-3 7th finishes square in front of the clubhouse.  You have to go around to the other side of the clubhouse to play the 8th and 9th, two parallel par-4s sticking out by the driving range.   Then you go to the 10th tee, which is back by the 7th green!  If they'd just re-sequence 8-9 as 1-2 you could get that nonsense out of the way quick and play the last 16 holes in a decently flowing routing.

4)  The awful 13th hole.  Pretty long par-4 for a muni, but doglegs right a bit too soon.  This leaves you with a 180-yard shot over a pond (which is one thing), but to a very wide, very shallow green about the size of the 12th at Augusta (which is quite another!).  There is NO WAY normal muni golfers are gonna stop a wood -- over water -- on that green.  Gotta hack a bunch of trees and widen that dogleg to allow freer driving, OR fill in that stupid pond so the short hitters can properly play it as a par 5. 

***

You could fix items 1 thru 3 with very little expenditure and NO earth moving.  Just dedicate a few more funds to the grounds crew and keep it mowed out properly.  Since it's a muni I can tolerate crummy sand in the bunkers, etc.  Just please let me have a run-up or decent chance at a greenside pitch!   Then take a little more cash and print a new batch of scorecards with the new hole sequence.

[David Harshbarger]

Congratulations, David H. 


You didn't happen to ask them who designed it, did you?

Mike I wish I had, but the teen couple manning the register did not strike me as club historians.

[David Harshbarger]

Course:   Black Rock GC (Owned by Washington County, MD)
Distance:  4 miles
Times I've played it:  Once, and that was enough.

Reasons to like it:  This course is billed as "the highest rated municipal course in Maryland".  That's nonsense, but they ARE doing a decent job growing grass there.  The views are also very nice.  And in places the land has a nice amount of movement for golf.  For a rural county course, the clubhouse operation is fairly full-featured.

Reasons to hate it: 

1)  Shrunken greens!  Look at the Google Earth on this one.  The (tiny) greens are barely larger than the bunkers in many cases.  With that kind of shrinkage there's sometimes 20 feet of rough between bunker edges and collars.  And for the most part there's no aprons either, just more rough.  No run-ups allowed apparently!

2)  Narrowed fairways.  Same shrinkage mowing as above, but to a slightly less heinous degree.

3)  Bad hole sequencing.  Holes 1-7 are the nicest part of the course, and the par-3 7th finishes square in front of the clubhouse.  You have to go around to the other side of the clubhouse to play the 8th and 9th, two parallel par-4s sticking out by the driving range.   Then you go to the 10th tee, which is back by the 7th green!  If they'd just re-sequence 8-9 as 1-2 you could get that nonsense out of the way quick and play the last 16 holes in a decently flowing routing.

4)  The awful 13th hole.  Pretty long par-4 for a muni, but doglegs right a bit too soon.  This leaves you with a 180-yard shot over a pond (which is one thing), but to a very wide, very shallow green about the size of the 12th at Augusta (which is quite another!).  There is NO WAY normal muni golfers are gonna stop a wood -- over water -- on that green.  Gotta hack a bunch of trees and widen that dogleg to allow freer driving, OR fill in that stupid pond so the short hitters can properly play it as a par 5. 

***

You could fix items 1 thru 3 with very little expenditure and NO earth moving.  Just dedicate a few more funds to the grounds crew and keep it mowed out properly.  Since it's a muni I can tolerate crummy sand in the bunkers, etc.  Just please let me have a run-up or decent chance at a greenside pitch!   Then take a little more cash and print a new batch of scorecards with the new hole sequence.

Sounds like flipping the nines would be good to.  Get the best part as 12-18.


Mowing lines!!!  Curse them!!! 


I’m glad that you gave them your time and attention.   

[Tim Leahy]

Slow play! I stopped playing Griffith Park in LA after it took 3 hrs, I kid you not, to play 6 holes on a Sunday afternoon. No Marshall's to be seen, fivesomes and no space between tee times. Most courses I won't play again are because of slow play.

[Jeff Schley]

Slow play! I stopped playing Griffith Park in LA after it took 3 hrs, I kid you not, to play 6 holes on a Sunday afternoon. No Marshall's to be seen, fivesomes and no space between tee times. Most courses I won't play again are because of slow play.

Yeah I remember when I lived in LA and used to go down to Los Verdes on Saturday morning (we got free golf with a buddy at American Golf) who used to stick me and another coach into a five some as early as he could. After waiting for the fog to burn off many mornings, it was UNCOMMON to finish a round in under 6 hours. It was a very busy place and good value with a few ocean breezes.  If it wasn't free no way would we have been spending our entire Saturday morning and afternoons there.

LA just doesn't have the capacity it needs for decent public golf with Rancho Park being another example. I think still the busiest course in the US.

[Jim_Coleman]

   After you’ve played a “bad” golf course, for reasons that I can’t fathom, I suggest you go out to dinner at a bad restaurant.

[John Emerson]

Not sure if I understand this thread.  I'm guessing if we've driven by it several times we probably have our reasons.

But for me, based on what I've seen in multiple drive-bys:
1)  Course is a Doak 1-1.5 at best.
2)  Resides in the worst part of the city
3)  Flat and featureless

Only thing it has going for it, it was the course Tony Finau played growing up...but ask me if I care two shits about that. 

What does location in a city have to do with it?  Are you REALLY that worried about it? If a course has something worth enjoying the location is irrelevant. If you’ve never seen or played it how do you know it stinks?

[John Emerson]

Course:   Black Rock GC (Owned by Washington County, MD)
Distance:  4 miles
Times I've played it:  Once, and that was enough.

Reasons to like it:  This course is billed as "the highest rated municipal course in Maryland".  That's nonsense, but they ARE doing a decent job growing grass there.  The views are also very nice.  And in places the land has a nice amount of movement for golf.  For a rural county course, the clubhouse operation is fairly full-featured.

Reasons to hate it: 

1)  Shrunken greens!  Look at the Google Earth on this one.  The (tiny) greens are barely larger than the bunkers in many cases.  With that kind of shrinkage there's sometimes 20 feet of rough between bunker edges and collars.  And for the most part there's no aprons either, just more rough.  No run-ups allowed apparently!

2)  Narrowed fairways.  Same shrinkage mowing as above, but to a slightly less heinous degree.

3)  Bad hole sequencing.  Holes 1-7 are the nicest part of the course, and the par-3 7th finishes square in front of the clubhouse.  You have to go around to the other side of the clubhouse to play the 8th and 9th, two parallel par-4s sticking out by the driving range.   Then you go to the 10th tee, which is back by the 7th green!  If they'd just re-sequence 8-9 as 1-2 you could get that nonsense out of the way quick and play the last 16 holes in a decently flowing routing.

4)  The awful 13th hole.  Pretty long par-4 for a muni, but doglegs right a bit too soon.  This leaves you with a 180-yard shot over a pond (which is one thing), but to a very wide, very shallow green about the size of the 12th at Augusta (which is quite another!).  There is NO WAY normal muni golfers are gonna stop a wood -- over water -- on that green.  Gotta hack a bunch of trees and widen that dogleg to allow freer driving, OR fill in that stupid pond so the short hitters can properly play it as a par 5. 

***

You could fix items 1 thru 3 with very little expenditure and NO earth moving.  Just dedicate a few more funds to the grounds crew and keep it mowed out properly.  Since it's a muni I can tolerate crummy sand in the bunkers, etc.  Just please let me have a run-up or decent chance at a greenside pitch!   Then take a little more cash and print a new batch of scorecards with the new hole sequence.

This is not even remotely close to as easy as your making it sound.

[John Emerson]

Par 3 Course couple miles away.  Every time I drove by it looked so packed that it would’ve taken forever just to play a round.  Slow rounds are the very FIRST thing that bothers me about a golf course.  This is a completely controllable situation.  What I did about it? Well, I played it.  I actually enjoyed it, and will go back.  Go paired up with two older retirees and had a great day.  Everyone played much faster than I ever anticipated and it was delightful.  Sometimes the actual quality of golf holes or shots is completely arbitrary to me if I am with the right people. If the people are good many silly issues don’t matter.  I always said if I had to choose between playing ANGC with 3 of the biggest douche-bag a-holes I ever met or play at some crappy municipal with 3 of the best guys I know I’m taking the municipal ever time and not thinking twice about it.

[Kalen Braley]

Not sure if I understand this thread.  I'm guessing if we've driven by it several times we probably have our reasons.

But for me, based on what I've seen in multiple drive-bys:
1)  Course is a Doak 1-1.5 at best.
2)  Resides in the worst part of the city
3)  Flat and featureless

Only thing it has going for it, it was the course Tony Finau played growing up...but ask me if I care two shits about that. 

What does location in a city have to do with it?  Are you REALLY that worried about it? If a course has something worth enjoying the location is irrelevant. If you’ve never seen or played it how do you know it stinks?

So location, doesn't matter to you?  Its no Oakland, but its also not a neighborhood I'd be walking around at night time.

But the real reason is simple... $$.  I can play a dozen courses within 15-20 miles that are far better for the same price, and I don't need to worry if my car gonna get broken into.

[Tim Leahy]

Par 3 Course couple miles away.  Every time I drove by it looked so packed that it would’ve taken forever just to play a round.  Slow rounds are the very FIRST thing that bothers me about a golf course.  This is a completely controllable situation.  What I did about it? Well, I played it.  I actually enjoyed it, and will go back.  Go paired up with two older retirees and had a great day.  Everyone played much faster than I ever anticipated and it was delightful.  Sometimes the actual quality of golf holes or shots is completely arbitrary to me if I am with the right people. If the people are good many silly issues don’t matter.  I always said if I had to choose between playing ANGC with 3 of the biggest douche-bag a-holes I ever met or play at some crappy municipal with 3 of the best guys I know I’m taking the municipal ever time and not thinking twice about it.

Can I have your spot at ANGC with the three dbags? 

[C. Sturges]

Kalen,


I have to ask where you are talking about having your car broken into?  In Salt Lake City?   It has been a while, but I have played most of the courses on the Wasatch front.  And I never would of been concerned for my car being broke into or not want to walk around at night.  Utah always felt like one of the safest places I have lived. 


Thanks,
chris


ps. Only time I did not feel safe was playing Mountain Dell and watching hunters shoot a moose a couple hundred yards from the course.   

[Daryl David]

My one and only car break-in was in Scotland. 15 minutes from Muirfield. 

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

I have to ask where you are talking about having your car broken into?  In Salt Lake City?   It has been a while, but I have played most of the courses on the Wasatch front.  And I never would of been concerned for my car being broke into or not want to walk around at night.  Utah always felt like one of the safest places I have lived. 

Thanks,
chris


ps. Only time I did not feel safe was playing Mountain Dell and watching hunters shoot a moose a couple hundred yards from the course.

One of Salt Lake Valley's dirty secrets is its massively high petty theft crime rate, (in large put due to the bull shit laws the pawn shop lobby have pushed thru). Between my family and I, we've had our cars broken into nearly 10 times over the last 8 years and one even stolen (including one break in just last week).  And the Rose Park area is the worst part of Salt Lake city for this kind of stuff.   But even if it wasn't, doesn't change the fact there is nothing remotely interesting about the golf course...


P.S.  The city does do well in terms of low crime rates for violent offenses, but property/petty theft is rampant.

[MCirba]

Congratulations, David H. 


You didn't happen to ask them who designed it, did you?

Mike I wish I had, but the teen couple manning the register did not strike me as club historians.

Really glad I already finished my coffee before reading that or I'd be wearing it!