[mark chalfant]

I would love to see an updated profile of this course near Chattanooga. It looks to have some amazing terrain with exceptional ground movement. Has anyone played in the past few years?


What are the standout holes and or greens here?


thank you!

[Carl Rogers]

Dixie Cup 2015, awful weather, as I remember.  Hard hard walk.  The only Raynor-Banks course I have ever played.
Want to play again.  I think the templates under go a looser definition due to the site.


As wife is from Chattanooga, a golf trip is an easy sell.


Sewannee & Sweeten's Cove are not far.

[Tyler Kearns]

Dixie Cup 2015, awful weather, as I remember.  Hard hard walk.  The only Raynor-Banks course I have ever played.
Want to play again.  I think the templates under go a looser definition due to the site.


As wife is from Chattanooga, a golf trip is an easy sell.


Sewannee & Sweeten's Cove are not far.

Carl,


We got fogged/rained out the day we were scheduled to play there at Dixie Cup 2015 - and played Sweeten's Cove instead.  I think the weather the next day at Lookout Mountain was good if I remember correctly. 


The first two holes are a tough start, although I believe the original clubhouse location was supposed to be out on the bluff near current 2 green / 3 tee.  The Biarritz 4th does not maintain as green the area before the swale, which is in keeping with the original concept, but I much prefer to see it as putting surface.  The cross-slope 5th fairway plays into a green backed by some large rock outcroppings which are used as a platform for the tee on the par 3 sixth whose green is surrounded by sand and steep falloffs covered in thick rough.  There are some nice rock outcroppings along the right side of the 9th fairway and the long views as you crest the hill on the Alps 11th is quite spectacular.  The Redan 13th features a lot more right-to-left tilt than the eye perceives, perhaps because it plays somewhat downhill.  The double-plateau 17th green features lots of interesting movement. 


Judging from older aerial photographs, much of the fairway bunkering has been added in the 1990's (in keeping with Raynor's original plan) and some tree removal has opened up some nice vistas throughout the golf course. 


Overall, the terrain is quite steep in spots, but nothing in the routing felt really awkward.  The setting of the golf course, including the winding drive in through the neighbourhood makes it a unique experience.


Tyler

[Carl Rogers]

As I recall, the 2nd day weather was not good either.  LM does have a great setting.
Chattanooga is an interesting town.

[Chris Mavros]

It wasn't raining when we got the round in at Lookout that Sunday, but the course had taken a lot of water and played a bit soggy even though the terrain allows it to drain on the quick side. 


My hole by hole photos and thoughts of the course (when played at DC 2015) are here: 


https://golfadelphia.com/2016/05/07/lookout-mountain-golf-club/

[Brian Ross]

I walked Lookout Mountain (no clubs) back in April and would echo most of the thoughts expressed above by Carl and Tyler. Lookout is a very cool setting with some phenomenal views out into the mountains of NW Georgia. The terrain is steep in places but not bad overall and there are only a few spots that really get the blood pumping (the approaches to 7, 12, and 14 being the steepest).

Unlike most of the flatland Raynor's that I have seen, the greens are not the star of the show at Lookout and the templates were a bit hit or miss for me. The Short 6th, Alps 11th, and Double Plateau 17th were very well done, but others like the Road 15th, Eden 16th, and Maiden 18th didn't do much for me. There were also some rock outcroppings that were utilized with great success on the 5th, 6th, and 9th that create a memorable experience.

[Rees Milikin]

I walked Lookout Mountain (no clubs) back in April and would echo most of the thoughts expressed above by Carl and Tyler. Lookout is a very cool setting with some phenomenal views out into the mountains of NW Georgia. The terrain is steep in places but not bad overall and there are only a few spots that really get the blood pumping (the approaches to 7, 12, and 14 being the steepest).

Unlike most of the flatland Raynor's that I have seen, the greens are not the star of the show at Lookout and the templates were a bit hit or miss for me. The Short 6th, Alps 11th, and Double Plateau 17th were very well done, but others like the Road 15th, Eden 16th, and Maiden 18th didn't do much for me. There were also some rock outcroppings that were utilized with great success on the 5th, 6th, and 9th that create a memorable experience.

The greens are the star of the show, with the Eden being one of the best.

[John Mayhugh]

Brian,
If you only walked the course, I'm curious how you evaluated the greens? They are far more interesting than you give them credit for. Not as many bold contours as you may have seen elsewhere, but that isn't the entire story. 

[Brian Ross]

John,

I have "only walked" many golf courses. In fact, I generally prefer it when studying the architecture of a place as I spend less time searching for my ball, chatting with playing partners, etc., and more time with my eyes on the details. I take my time (it usually takes me 3-3.5 hours to "walk" a course), especially at the greens, and I bring a golf ball with me to roll a few when I see something worth more detailed study. I appreciate that there are some subtle details that may be missed by not playing but I think it would generally take many plays for one to fully grasp and/or appreciate those details and I don't typically have that luxury.

Please don't get me wrong, I think Lookout is a very good golf course but the greens do lack the boldness, especially internally, that I have seen on other Raynor courses (some that I have played, others just walked), which led to my comments above. Perhaps that was the genius of Raynor/Banks as that property doesn't "need" bold greens to be good whereas places like Country Club of Charleston or Mountain Lake do. Whether there is something there that cannot be seen and must be experienced is a debate that must be had by those who have had multiple plays and it may be that there is no debate at all. Both you and Rees have implied that the greens deserve more credit than I am giving them but haven't offered an explanation or examples as to why that is so, so what did I miss?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Having played a good number of Raynor courses, I would venture that Lookout Mountain may have his most severe greens.  Granted, I played in early November that year, but I putted off the Eden green, and had quite a few big breaking putts.  Had nothing close to that the next day at Camargo!

[John Mayhugh]

Brian,
I think Robert's post nails it. The greens can be quite severe, but there's more reliance on tilt than interior contours. There's plenty of pressure on approach shots for this reason, and 3 putting is quite easy to do. While the greens may not look or photograph as particularly distinctive, they work really well when you play the course.

Where I think you make a big error is in comparing these to "most flatland Raynor's." Lookout Mountain's site is as far from that as you can get.

[Brian Ross]

Thanks John and Robert. Multiple times during my walk I made note of places where missing on the wrong side of the green or being above the pin would be detrimental and I agree that the greens rely much more on tilt than contour. Given the setting, that part didn't surprise me.

I believe my original comments are being misunderstood, though. I'm not insinuating that Lookout is very good in spite of its greens but simply that I didn't walk off that day thinking it was very good because of its greens, whereas that has been the case on the other Raynor's I've seen/played. I should also note that many of the MacRaynor features that I like the most such as the front tier and swale being part of the green on the Biarritz, the false front and kicker being in the green on the Redan, and the tongue/false front being on the green on the Eden are all missing here, which sets it back a bit in my eyes.

[Pete_Pittock]

There was a story told of a bet where someone would place a ball on each green and the bet was that so and so couldn't break x putts. Anyone remember the particulars?

[Chris Mavros]

I recall the story being a golfer at index X  was bet he couldn't break 95 even if he was given every GIR and all he had to was putt the greens.  And he didn't come close to breaking 95.  I just forget what index the golfer was.

[Pete Lavallee]

I second the opinion of JM and RMD, LM has greens that tilt into the sites slope which is very difficult to perceive! It’s not the obvious features that complicate the putting. I’ve probably never felt so inept at reading what a putt would do than there.

[Jeffrey Conners]

My son and I played 36 at Lookout Mountain in early September.  We enjoyed the first 18 so much that we played again after lunch.  It was very hot but the course was still fairly firm and fast.  The course is very walkable (we walked both rounds).  I thought #2 (Valley), #5 (Bowl), #10 (Cape) and #11 (apls) were especially notable.  I agree with the comment on #18 (Maiden) being among the weaker holes; the driving area is extremely narrow.  The setting is spectacular and the people at the club couldn't have been more welcoming.  We played Sweetens the next day but unfortunately didn't make it to Sewanee. 

[Rees Milikin]

John,

I have "only walked" many golf courses. In fact, I generally prefer it when studying the architecture of a place as I spend less time searching for my ball, chatting with playing partners, etc., and more time with my eyes on the details. I take my time (it usually takes me 3-3.5 hours to "walk" a course), especially at the greens, and I bring a golf ball with me to roll a few when I see something worth more detailed study. I appreciate that there are some subtle details that may be missed by not playing but I think it would generally take many plays for one to fully grasp and/or appreciate those details and I don't typically have that luxury.

Please don't get me wrong, I think Lookout is a very good golf course but the greens do lack the boldness, especially internally, that I have seen on other Raynor courses (some that I have played, others just walked), which led to my comments above. Perhaps that was the genius of Raynor/Banks as that property doesn't "need" bold greens to be good whereas places like Country Club of Charleston or Mountain Lake do. Whether there is something there that cannot be seen and must be experienced is a debate that must be had by those who have had multiple plays and it may be that there is no debate at all. Both you and Rees have implied that the greens deserve more credit than I am giving them but haven't offered an explanation or examples as to why that is so, so what did I miss?

You missed playing the course and being able to make an educated assessment.  Greens don't need to have big humps or swales to be bold.  Try again next time.

[Brian Ross]

You missed playing the course and being able to make an educated assessment.  Greens don't need to have big humps or swales to be bold.  Try again next time.

More quality input...thanks.

[Jason Thurman]

The whole trick to the greens at Lookout is that, with the entire course built on a mountainside, you have to read both the visible slope as well as the inherent underlying slope on which each surface is built. Like everyone else on this thread who has actually played the golf course, I found that balance uniquely challenging. To cite the Eden specifically as an example of a green that could’ve been bolder... well, it reaffirms my interest in playing rather than gazing. That green looks like a pretty straightforward back-to-front until your putt from pin-high starts breaking down the mountain.

[/size][size=78%]A couple other thoughts: I can’t decide if 5 is great or a little one-dimensional. And am I crazy to think 1 is a world-class opener? [/size]

[Eric Strulowitz]

My son and I played 36 at Lookout Mountain in early September.  We enjoyed the first 18 so much that we played again after lunch.  It was very hot but the course was still fairly firm and fast.  The course is very walkable (we walked both rounds).  I thought #2 (Valley), #5 (Bowl), #10 (Cape) and #11 (apls) were especially notable.  I agree with the comment on #18 (Maiden) being among the weaker holes; the driving area is extremely narrow.  The setting is spectacular and the people at the club couldn't have been more welcoming.  We played Sweetens the next day but unfortunately didn't make it to Sewanee.

Interesting how perceptions differ.  #18 is my favorite hole on the course.  I understand that Raynor never saw the course in its finished state, but on paper this was supposidly his favorite hole.


If you try for a long straight drive, this hole is very tight, and very low margin for error.  But if you back off, and use  a hybrid or fairway wood, your drive will inevitably get sucked into the valley on the left.  Leaving a medium to short iron to the hole, often a blind shot.  An exciting hole, like the Alps, in that you have no idea where your 2nd shot is, until you approach the hole.  You just play the distance, and hope for the best.  That bunker on the right of the hole sucks a lot of shots, and is very penal, making for a very challenging hole, and one from a technical standpoint has a lot going on.


Agree with your comments about the course being very walkable.  There are a few holes that are up and down, but many that are flat to rolling.  A very pleasurable walk, and the course is seldom crowded, so you never feel rushed.

[Rees Milikin]

You missed playing the course and being able to make an educated assessment.  Greens don't need to have big humps or swales to be bold.  Try again next time.

More quality input...thanks.

About as quality as the input you put into playing the course and making an evaluation. 

[mark chalfant]

My friend Ed Getka speaks very highly of Lookout Mountain.


 Thanks for all the great information about the course and thanks to Ran M. for the nice course profile

[Ari Techner]

I was a member at Lookout Mtn for a long time.  Definitely 100% agree that when playing this course the greens are the star of the show.  If they were more severe they would be unplayable.  As mentioned above, because of the site and the extreme slopes that are on the side of the mountain where the course is, you have to read for both visable slope and the invisible slope of the site.  It's extremely challenging and difficult.  I've heard it likened to the Mystery Spot before.  Members definitely have the advantage of knowing the greens vs a visitor.  They are typically very fast and the members constantly talk about de-greening themselves which is not something talked about much at other courses.  When I was there we had a putting tournament a couple times a year and nobody ever averages under 2 putts.  Overall extremely unique course and set of greens and a testimate to Raynors ability to route a great course on a difficult site.  I think it's a restoration away from true greatness.  There's some really great holes out there and very unique due to the site.  Great course to play all the time.  Great walk.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

You missed playing the course and being able to make an educated assessment.  Greens don't need to have big humps or swales to be bold.  Try again next time.

I think you can get a better appreciation for a course by walking it than playing it. Especially if you can watch others playing it.

If I had to study a course, and choose between playing it twice or walking it for eight hours, I think I could learn much more doing the latter.


Do other architects feel that way, or have I got it backward?

[Rees Milikin]

You missed playing the course and being able to make an educated assessment.  Greens don't need to have big humps or swales to be bold.  Try again next time.

I think you can get a better appreciation for a course by walking it than playing it. Especially if you can watch others playing it.

If I had to study a course, and choose between playing it twice or walking it for eight hours, I think I could learn much more doing the latter.


Do other architects feel that way, or have I got it backward?

You have to walk it backward.

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