[Duncan Cheslett]

Sweetens Cove appears to have the business model of a rural Scottish nine-holder minus the honesty box!


The difference is that Sweetens Cove is the coolest golf club in the world right now. I’ve already asked Rob to put me down for an International Membership!


I’m considering a golfing trip stateside with my wife later this year. SC is the course at the very top of my “to play” list!


I really couldn’t care less about a clubhouse.

[Bernie Bell]

Don't know much about the business model of rural Scottish 9-holers.  Do many sell $100 logo head covers and $200 logo vests off their world-class websites?

[Duncan Cheslett]

Don't know much about the business model of rural Scottish 9-holers.  Do many sell $100 logo head covers and $200 logo vests off their world-class websites?

That’s just a function of being the coolest golf club in the world right now. Make hay while the sun shines!


I’ve got a SC cap. I’ve never been there though.

[Tim Martin]

Don't know much about the business model of rural Scottish 9-holers.  Do many sell $100 logo head covers and $200 logo vests off their world-class websites?

That’s just a function of being the coolest golf club in the world right now. Make hay while the sun shines!


I’ve got a SC cap. I’ve never been there though.

Who is proclaiming it “the coolest golf club in the world”?

[Duncan Cheslett]

Ah, the backlash begins...


 

[Tim Martin]

Ah, the backlash begins...


 

You know they don’t have goats right?

[David Harshbarger]

Ah, the backlash begins...


 

You know they don’t have goats right?

And without a clubhouse, they must not have yoga, either.

[SB]

At the risk of getting shot from all sides, my take is a little different.  I currently own a public golf course and have owned private clubs in the past.  A couple thoughts:
1.  At my public course, we see plenty of millennials.  Tons.  It's an affordable, fun course in a big-ish city.  We also have lots of kids.  Lots and lots of kids. 

2.  Not everyone is the same or joins clubs for the same reason.  This will be a very hard fact for some of you to grasp.  Not everyone joins a club to be able to walk a Coore/Crenshaw design with $1,000 leather carry bags.  The clubs that I previously owned were affordable(ish) clubs in major suburban markets and .  I could generally break down why people joined based on their age (but obviously there are exceptions, so don't start whining if you do not fit perfectly into my categories).
     a.  Age 23-35.  Almost exclusively single men who played a lot growing up and still play a lot.  They join a club because they play multiple times a week (what with no family and all) and the discount on dues makes joining a club a great economic decision.  Also like the better conditions and and getting out of the public golf jumble.  They generally join based on the course and the cost.  This group might represent 5%-10% of new members. 
    b.  Age 40-50.  Mostly married couples.  They join because Mom wants the tennis and they want the pool and the activities for the kids.  About 50% join as social members and many upgrade later to golf.  Or they join as golf because Dad wants to be able to play more golf, or he wants to use it for business.  Course is not very important, most join based on location, cost and quality of pool/tennis/fitness.  This is probably 50%-60% of new members
   c.  Age 55-65.  Kids leave the house and/or primary breadwinner retires/slows down giving them more free time.  Course becomes more important, as does dining.  20%-30% of new members.
   d.  Age 65+.  Retirees looking to become more active.  Dining and social calendar very important, course needs to be playable.  Generally they join where their friends are already members.  10% of new members.

3.  So, if the question is, why aren't millennials joining clubs, its because they, and the people before them, are in their 30's and do not join clubs in large numbers and never have joined clubs in large numbers.  Other than a few single men, young people don't join clubs until they move to the burbs and want the suburban lifestyle with the kids on the swim team and Dad getting in 9 if he gets off work early.  Millennials don't meet that criteria.  Other than a tiny group of hardcore golfers, Millennials mostly play public golf.  I'm sure they love Sweetins Cove. 

If you want to criticize my fellow GenXers, that is a different story.   

[Duncan Cheslett]

Ah, the backlash begins...


 

You know they don’t have goats right?

And without a clubhouse, they must not have yoga, either.

Or a pool...


Or tennis courts...


Or overheads...

[Eric Strulowitz]

Sweetens Cove appears to have the business model of a rural Scottish nine-holder minus the honesty box!


The difference is that Sweetens Cove is the coolest golf club in the world right now. I’ve already asked Rob to put me down for an International Membership!


I’m considering a golfing trip stateside with my wife later this year. SC is the course at the very top of my “to play” list!


I really couldn’t care less about a clubhouse.

Sweetens Cove is a great venue.  It is a true minimalist experience,  it is just pure golf.   I could not care less about a clubhouse either, but we are probably in the minority.  In fact, a lot of clubs in the US, their business model is sometimes more skewed toward the clubhouse then the golf.  I have played all over the UK, and the clubhouses were very functional and classy, but nothing like some of the palaces here. It gets a bit ridiculous I think, but to each their own, and if there is a demand for this, it should be provided.  The original post here is about millennials, I don't think they are the least bit impressed with these amazing palaces, and after golf they are ready to get home, not hang around the spa, or mens grill, or sauna, or whatever for hours. 

[Bernie Bell]

I am intrigued by Sweetens and hope to play it some day.  Would go well out of my way to do so . . . would have to.  But is that really "the model"?  What is it?  I assume even millennials at some point would like hot and cold running water.  Is the ultimate play there by the money guys going to be to put in cabins?  Then it's not hanging out for hours, it's days. 

[Daryl David]

At the risk of getting shot from all sides, my take is a little different.  I currently own a public golf course and have owned private clubs in the past.  A couple thoughts:
1.  At my public course, we see plenty of millennials.  Tons.  It's an affordable, fun course in a big-ish city.  We also have lots of kids.  Lots and lots of kids. 
2.  Golf is not dying.  There have been articles saying it is dying since around 2003.  It is certainly changing but it is not dying.  My course had its best year ever.  The private clubs around me are, $75,000, $80,000, $100,000, and $100,000 to get in respectively.  About double what they were 7 years ago. All have multi year waiting lists.  You've probably never heard of any of them.  Did people stupidly build golf courses where they should not have?  Absolutely, and those will continue to go out of business.
3.  Not everyone is the same or joins clubs for the same reason.  This will be a very hard fact for some of you to grasp.  Not everyone joins a club to be able to walk a Coore/Crenshaw design with $1,000 leather carry bags.  The clubs that I previously owned were affordable(ish) clubs in major suburban markets and .  I could generally break down why people joined based on their age (but obviously there are exceptions, so don't start whining if you do not fit perfectly into my categories).
     a.  Age 23-35.  Almost exclusively single men who played a lot growing up and still play a lot.  They join a club because they play multiple times a week (what with no family and all) and the discount on dues makes joining a club a great economic decision.  Also like the better conditions and and getting out of the public golf jumble.  They generally join based on the course and the cost.  This group might represent 5%-10% of new members. 
    b.  Age 40-50.  Mostly married couples.  They join because Mom wants the tennis and they want the pool and the activities for the kids.  About 50% join as social members and many upgrade later to golf.  Or they join as golf because Dad wants to be able to play more golf, or he wants to use it for business.  Course is not very important, most join based on location, cost and quality of pool/tennis/fitness.  This is probably 50%-60% of new members
   c.  Age 55-65.  Kids leave the house and/or primary breadwinner retires/slows down giving them more free time.  Course becomes more important, as does dining.  20%-30% of new members.
   d.  Age 65+.  Retirees looking to become more active.  Dining and social calendar very important, course needs to be playable.  Generally they join where their friends are already members.  10% of new members.

4.  So, if the question is, why aren't millennials joining clubs, its because they, and the people before them, are in their 30's and do not join clubs in large numbers and never have joined clubs in large numbers.  Other than a few single men, young people don't join clubs until they move to the burbs and want the suburban lifestyle with the kids on the swim team and Dad getting in 9 if he gets off work early.  Millennials don't meet that criteria.  Other than a tiny group of hardcore golfers, Millennials mostly play public golf.  I'm sure they love Sweetins Cove. 

If you want to criticize my fellow GenXers, that is a different story.

Leader in the clubhouse for best post of the thread.

[Philip Hensley]

At the risk of getting shot from all sides, my take is a little different.  I currently own a public golf course and have owned private clubs in the past.  A couple thoughts:
1.  At my public course, we see plenty of millennials.  Tons.  It's an affordable, fun course in a big-ish city.  We also have lots of kids.  Lots and lots of kids. 
2.  Golf is not dying.  There have been articles saying it is dying since around 2003.  It is certainly changing but it is not dying.  My course had its best year ever.  The private clubs around me are, $75,000, $80,000, $100,000, and $100,000 to get in respectively.  About double what they were 7 years ago. All have multi year waiting lists.  You've probably never heard of any of them.  Did people stupidly build golf courses where they should not have?  Absolutely, and those will continue to go out of business.
3.  Not everyone is the same or joins clubs for the same reason.  This will be a very hard fact for some of you to grasp.  Not everyone joins a club to be able to walk a Coore/Crenshaw design with $1,000 leather carry bags.  The clubs that I previously owned were affordable(ish) clubs in major suburban markets and .  I could generally break down why people joined based on their age (but obviously there are exceptions, so don't start whining if you do not fit perfectly into my categories).
     a.  Age 23-35.  Almost exclusively single men who played a lot growing up and still play a lot.  They join a club because they play multiple times a week (what with no family and all) and the discount on dues makes joining a club a great economic decision.  Also like the better conditions and and getting out of the public golf jumble.  They generally join based on the course and the cost.  This group might represent 5%-10% of new members. 
    b.  Age 40-50.  Mostly married couples.  They join because Mom wants the tennis and they want the pool and the activities for the kids.  About 50% join as social members and many upgrade later to golf.  Or they join as golf because Dad wants to be able to play more golf, or he wants to use it for business.  Course is not very important, most join based on location, cost and quality of pool/tennis/fitness.  This is probably 50%-60% of new members
   c.  Age 55-65.  Kids leave the house and/or primary breadwinner retires/slows down giving them more free time.  Course becomes more important, as does dining.  20%-30% of new members.
   d.  Age 65+.  Retirees looking to become more active.  Dining and social calendar very important, course needs to be playable.  Generally they join where their friends are already members.  10% of new members.

4.  So, if the question is, why aren't millennials joining clubs, its because they, and the people before them, are in their 30's and do not join clubs in large numbers and never have joined clubs in large numbers.  Other than a few single men, young people don't join clubs until they move to the burbs and want the suburban lifestyle with the kids on the swim team and Dad getting in 9 if he gets off work early.  Millennials don't meet that criteria.  Other than a tiny group of hardcore golfers, Millennials mostly play public golf.  I'm sure they love Sweetins Cove. 

If you want to criticize my fellow GenXers, that is a different story.

Leader in the clubhouse for best post of the thread.

+1

[Kalen Braley]

Sorry,

But i'm not buying.  Just because I look out my window and its sunny and 75, don't mean its so everywhere.  I'm glad SBs local area is doing well, but this is the classic mistake of inserting personal experience over the data in the aggregate.

Rounds are down.
Course closings far outnumber new ones.
Number of active golfers is down
Total industry revenue is down.
Etc.

Perhaps the message would be more palatable if the claim had been golf isn't dying nearly as fast as everyone thinks and is merely in a slow decline...

[SB]

Sorry,

But i'm not buying.  Just because I look out my window and its sunny and 75, don't mean its so everywhere.  I'm glad SBs local area is doing well, but this is the classic mistake of inserting personal experience over the data in the aggregate.

Rounds are down.
Course closings far outnumber new ones.
Number of active golfers is down
Total industry revenue is down.
Etc.

Perhaps the message would be more palatable if the claim had been golf isn't dying nearly as fast as everyone thinks and is merely in a slow decline...

Point taken.  I am guilty of criticizing others for the same thing.  I have deleted that section.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Those born close to the the end of Gen y cycle, plus the X-ennials and Milennials, will inherit the assets of the richest generational cycle in our history, the Baby Boomers (aka, their parents) in the not so distant future. Boom!

[Jason Thurman]

Eh, let's wait until the Boomers have finished paying medical bills before we anoint their childrens' inheritances.

[Daryl David]

Eh, let's wait until the Boomers have finished paying medical bills before we anoint their childrens' inheritances.

Gee, I thought we are all going to get free healthcare. 

[John Kirk]

Eh, let's wait until the Boomers have finished paying medical bills before we anoint their childrens' inheritances.

Gee, I thought we are all going to get free healthcare. 

Sorry, Daryl, free healthcare is reserved for civilized nations.  (Edit, to be clear:    )

[Mike_Young]

I think Sbusch post is pretty spot on.
And Jim K...they will inherit a bunch but just look at all the HOA issues around retirement areas where the kids have no interest in inheriting a big second home and paying HOA fees and golf fees.  there are hundreds of HOA's upside down with no where to go...think about the issues at Harbor Town with a great golf course and new clubhouse and hotel yet the homes are the originals and are 50 year old wooden structures that have not been updated...do they tear them all down?  They have an issue right now.
But getting back to the model:  here;'s what I try to do...back into it..  assume you want to operate at 1 million annual revenue which is 20,000 rounds at $50.  Thats hard for most public courses in the country.  But you can make all of that work if you buy at less than $500,000 in the right location and you keep the maintenance under $275,000.  Forget the dining experience and just weenies and beer with music events, hats, shirts balls etc but keep good greens complexes and good practice area.  I'm not  big fan of 9 holes for the above reason of how difficult it is to run 20,000 18 hole rounds thru one.  I also think Tpgolf is bowling no matter how much it makes and want no part of it or foot golf or any of the other gimmicks.  But what ever your model back into it don't just assume the revenues are there...golf is fine as as long as expenses are less than revenues..JMO

[John Emerson]

I am intrigued by Sweetens and hope to play it some day.  Would go well out of my way to do so . . . would have to.  But is that really "the model"?  What is it?  I assume even millennials at some point would like hot and cold running water.  Is the ultimate play there by the money guys going to be to put in cabins?  Then it's not hanging out for hours, it's days.

No it’s pretty much “BYOE-bring your own everything”.  Beer, food, etc.  It’s a great golf course that invests in the golf and “the hang”.  I’m serious when I say their “clubhouse” is a shed.    They have a putting course now and a outdoor pavilion.  It’s pure minimalist golf and golf only.  If these types popped up everywhere where the younger crowd gathers it would put tons of places out of business.  Although, is this thing repeatable??  That’s the million dollar question!!


And from what I understand is that they are making a killing now.  Struggled for a few years but now they’re doing really well.

[Amol Yajnik]

Love SBusch's post, first of all.


As other have mentioned, the rapidly rising costs of housing (especially in cities) combined with more people coming out of college/grad school with lots of student loan debt reduces disposable income.  Then when you have kids, everything is more expensive nowadays and once kids get into organized sports or other activities, there goes another chunk of money as well as free time.  I also think that many people in their 20s and 30s want to be mobile and don't want to pay a big initiation fee to be tied down to one club.  As SBusch said, once they get into their 40s and 50s, the math changes somewhat as kids get older and families are more established wherever they are living.


All of that said, there are other priorities at work.  I'm an avid golfer, just turned 40, but haven't looked to join a club for a number of reasons.  My son is 6 right now....maybe that changes if he shows a real interest in the game down the road, a club membership will be more palatable to my wife.  But at this point, she wants nothing to do with all of the "other" stuff at a club and she doesn't play golf.  So a club membership is low on the priority list at this point.  Plus, we can take what would theoretically pay in membership dues and go on 1-2 really nice vacations each year, plus I can get a golf trip as well in most years.

[Daryl David]

Eh, let's wait until the Boomers have finished paying medical bills before we anoint their childrens' inheritances.

Gee, I thought we are all going to get free healthcare. 

Sorry, Daryl, free healthcare is reserved for civilized nations.  (Edit, to be clear:    )

John, you crushed me. My whole financial plan depends on it. There go all my club memberships. Hope I can afford Top Golf!   

[Mike Hendren]

Perhaps the housing market is analogous  - rent vs own. The rental market benefits from the challenge of qualifying for a residential mortgage: $1.5 trillion of student debt, increased mobility, historically high median income / median house price and inability to save a down-payment. Add lower household formation and upscale rental options and  the single family market faces headwinds. Not unlike private clubs.


Or the old saying “Why buy the cow when you can buy the milk?”

[SB]

Perhaps the housing market is analogous  - rent vs own. The rental market benefits from the challenge of qualifying for a residential mortgage: $1.5 trillion of student debt, increased mobility, historically high median income / median house price and inability to save a down-payment. Add lower household formation and upscale rental options and  the single family market faces headwinds. Not unlike private clubs.


Or the old saying “Why buy the cow when you can buy the milk?”

There is truth to this, hence the growth of the public golf market and the pressure it has put on the private golf clubs in the last 20 years.  However, there are few daily fee courses anymore that have private golf course conditions - it simply costs too much.   Pace of play is often slower and generally the course may not be as good.  Plus, you don't get the amenities of a private club - you can go join Lifetime and a tennis club and a swim team, but add it all up and you might as well just join a country club and get it all at one spot. 

Now, for people that don't need all the other stuff and just want to go play 18 (like Amol), a country club may be a waste of money.  And, many public courses have "memberships" which are incredibly economical and are essentially the "British model" many of you wish for - cheap memberships supplemented by outside play. 

Most 9 hole and executive courses have the Sweetins "model" of minimal overhead and just golf.  It is $70 for 18 holes with a cart, not exactly cheap.  Sweetins' differentiator is an amazing golf course, one that I think is unique and fantastic even compared to most 18 hole golf courses I've played.  It's the only 9 hole course in the top 50 (maybe top 1000) for gosh sakes.  Can that be replicated?  Not easily.

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