"Why Won't Millenials Join Country Clubs?"

[John Kavanaugh]

For those of you who are not aware it is also a Millennial that started the Domie Network that saved a club I love and introduced more great golf to not only me but most of my friends. The future of golf is indeed bright!!!

[Erik J. Barzeski]

For those of you who are not aware it is also a Millennial that started the Domie Network that saved a club I love and introduced more great golf to not only me but most of my friends. The future of golf is indeed bright!!!

One-offs can be just that. Exceptions.

[Jeff Loh]

I thought it was Cattle and Publishing that started Dormie Network

[Phil Carlucci]

Five Towns is a pretty small area with Seawane, Inwood, Lawrence Yacht and CC, Woodmere Club, and Rockaway Hunting Club offering private options and almost all are in each other’s shadow. I don’t know where each club stands as far as membership rolls but the new model at Seawane will be a gauge going forward as to whether something different works.

Woodmere is scheduled to close after the 2021 season.

[John Kavanaugh]

I thought it was Cattle and Publishing that started Dormie Network

When it is raining money you don't ask the sun to part the clouds.

[Tim Martin]

Five Towns is a pretty small area with Seawane, Inwood, Lawrence Yacht and CC, Woodmere Club, and Rockaway Hunting Club offering private options and almost all are in each other’s shadow. I don’t know where each club stands as far as membership rolls but the new model at Seawane will be a gauge going forward as to whether something different works.

Woodmere is scheduled to close after the 2021 season.

Phil-Thanks for that. I checked out your blog about the Long Island public golf scene and its fantastic. A great resource for Winter golf as well.

[Brian Ross]

I'm on the older end of the Millennial generation. When we were living in the Pinehurst area my family and I joined at Pinehurst CC, albeit only as social members. We were members for about 8 months, all in, so obviously not one of our better life decisions. It did keep my city-loving wife happy that summer, though, so I suppose it was worth it in that regard. 

We used the facilities pretty frequently (mainly the pool) during the summer, but the value wasn't as great after the pool closed for the winter. Despite that, I believe we would have remained members but we ended up deciding to move that winter so we cancelled right away. The membership included a small discount on golf but given how infrequently I play these days and with so many other great (and still less expensive) options in the area, I ended up not playing very many rounds out there.

That was a pretty unique situation for us and I doubt we will ever join a club again for many of the same reasons others have already mentioned (a mortgage-sized student loan payment, heavy travel schedule, other hobbies, and a social circle that pulls us in other directions being the primary reasons) but I suppose we could change our minds on that one day.

[Daryl David]

I suppose we could change our minds on that one day.

I’m willing to bet you will. I have been doing an unscientific survey since this thread began among my fellow members ranging in age from 57 to 81. So far it’s a small sample size, but I have only found 1 in 10 that belonged to a private club before turning 40. When I ask why, I hear family pressures, job requirements, high cost of club membership, mortgage, etc.  See any similarities?

[Brian Ross]

I’m willing to bet you will. I have been doing an unscientific survey since this thread began among my fellow members ranging in age from 57 to 81. So far it’s a small sample size, but I have only found 1 in 10 that belonged to a private club before turning 40. When I ask why, I hear family pressures, job requirements, high cost of club membership, mortgage, etc.  See any similarities?

Daryl,

That's good information. I hope you will update us on your findings as you continue to get results. I still believe that as my generation ages we will be less likely to join clubs than previous generations, but you're right that some who said they wouldn't will end up doing so, after all.

Out of curiosity, are you also tracking at what age the members you are asking did join? That would be good information to have when making comparisons down the road.

[Rob Marshall]

I suppose we could change our minds on that one day.

I’m willing to bet you will. I have been doing an unscientific survey since this thread began among my fellow members ranging in age from 57 to 81. So far it’s a small sample size, but I have only found 1 in 10 that belonged to a private club before turning 40. When I ask why, I hear family pressures, job requirements, high cost of club membership, mortgage, etc.  See any similarities?

Joined my club at 28. This will be my 30th year at the same club. When I joined I was the youngest member. Played with guys who have all passed on now. I think you unscientific survey is right on.

[Daryl David]

I’m willing to bet you will. I have been doing an unscientific survey since this thread began among my fellow members ranging in age from 57 to 81. So far it’s a small sample size, but I have only found 1 in 10 that belonged to a private club before turning 40. When I ask why, I hear family pressures, job requirements, high cost of club membership, mortgage, etc.  See any similarities?

Daryl,

That's good information. I hope you will update us on your findings as you continue to get results. I still believe that as my generation ages we will be less likely to join clubs than previous generations, but you're right that some who said they wouldn't will end up doing so, after all.

Out of curiosity, are you also tracking at what age the members you are asking did join? That would be good information to have when making comparisons down the road.

So far, I would say most joined in their late forties to early 50s. It isn’t that all these guys had to wait that long to have enough money. It was that their priorities for spending it changed. Joining a club moved ahead of some other priorities. As for me, I’m in the minority in my own survey. I joined my first club at 24 and have been a member at a total of 14 clubs. (Not all at once!). Only belong to three now. Of the 11 I left, I only got my equity back once. Forfeited the rest or lost it when the club went under. It’s been an expensive priority, but for me the correct one.

[Mark_Fine]

Given there are 8 plus pages of posts which I have not read, I trust this point has already been covered but I will state it anyway - it is not only millennials that are not joining country clubs - it is almost everybody.  Most of my restoration/renovation projects are with mid-level private country clubs and almost every single one of them is struggling with membership.  Even my home club where I am a member - Lehigh CC which is a top of the line club could use more members.  Unlike in the U.K., where almost every private club welcomes outside play (that is how they pay the bills), many private clubs in the U.S. do not.  I believe this will change dramatically in the coming years (it already is changing).  Even top of the line private clubs are now more welcoming to outside play, outside events, ...,whatever to help bring in money to pay the bills.  The private club as we used to know it is going to continue to evolve as well as the way it appeals to "members" and/or people who use it.   

[Mike Schott]

Erik, his implication was simply that as a group, they do not yet have all the requisite attributes to populate country clubs.

Would you argue that the average 35 year old has the disposable income, available time and interest in joining a golf/country club that will cost $500+ per month?

I know, but I think a lot of people think of Millennials as just being 20-25 or something. They're older than people (seem to) think.

And $500/month? Sure, many of the ones in their 30s have that. I joined a club when I was 25, because it was important to me. Most? No.

It depends on their income and their priorities. Personally, a good education for children, investing in retirement savings, a college fund and owning a home in a good area are priorities. If there is enough expendable income to join a club that would be a nice bonus.

[Ron Coker]

in my experience, millennials who played golf in college are quick to join a club for their love of the game.  Others are more reluctant for the many reasons previously stated - student loans, mortgages, family priorities, etc. 

[Duncan Cheslett]

"Why Won't Millennials Join Country Clubs?"


Because they don't need to!


This is the age of the WhatsApp golfer. 


A group of like minded folk communicate instantly with each other and arrange golf games at whichever course takes their fancy and which is accessible at a reasonable price. WhatsApp combined with GolfNow is a powerful tool for playing as much golf as you can fit into your schedule at a fraction of the price of country club membership.


I'm a member of two top 100 golf clubs, but in the UK that only costs me a total of £1350 ($1800) per year for unlimited golf. It is clear that many clubs in the US charge that much per month!


Why on earth would a keen golfer with limited time on his hands make that kind of commitment when he has the WhatsApp alternative? Particularly if he has no interest in swimming pools, tennis courts, and faux fine dining!


Hell, I'm a member of at least five such WhatsApp groups in addition to my club memberships. Each group feels like a little "club" in its own right. Maybe 8 or 12 guys meet up somewhere for a game of golf followed by a beer and a bite to eat afterwards. If I was a millennial I'm pretty sure I'd just stick with that - as indeed, very many do.


Just wait until struggling lower/mid tier country clubs inevitably start selling tee times on GolfNow in a desperate bid for cash...

... the whole country club edifice will quickly begin to crumble.

[Jeff Schley]

I don't know the retirement system in the UK/Australia, however in the US the pension plans (defined benefit) have become almost non-existent in the private sector.  In it's place 401k's and IRA's are now the overwhelming majority of retirement savings vehicles. Today I believe only 13% of private sector workers have a pension plan they are paying into, and less than 5% of new hires are offered this as part of their benefits. So we have some that are grandfathered in as a pension plan, and new hires go to the 401k route which is much less lucrative and risky.

In summation, this is another factor which gives two reasons to the decline apart from the tax benefits being withdrawn.
1. non-government workers in the private sector are having to use their own income to fund their retirements at a much higher rate as gone are the days where a fat pension would bring security in retirement.

2. As many jobs don't offer pensions to keep employees loyal, they job hop by necessity and as such don't want to commit to an initiation fee at a private club for they most likely will change jobs and areas.

[corey miller]

I have never played the Seawane course but have been on the property for an event.  The disconnect for me is that the club does not seem to be lacking in facilities, this is a change in "focus".  The past board and governing regime could have easily (it seems) implemented the change in focus (toward families and millenials)  themselves.  I believe the infra-structure is in place and I believe that is probably the direction they thought they have been going in the last two decades.   


It seems the private club world might need a new structure if it is going to offer or try to offer a new focus.


What is clear is the new co-owners will have the ability to be more successful attempting this than the prior member owners.


Steve L may be loathe to comment....but Paramount, also in the NYC Metro area is a great example of a outside group, with less constraints providing a superior product to the members.   

[Kalen Braley]

With all due respect, i don't believe informal polls in this group on this topic is exactly representative.

Its like going to a convention for politicians and asking if they think taking large campaign donations from shady characters is a problem.

[Craig Sweet]

Back in my early 20's I was a member of a pretty nice club in Southern Vermont. The father of a work buddy of mine put my name in for membership, I think so his kid would have someone to golf with...Over the years my time golf playing varied from job to job and decade to decade. I never joined another club, but worked at a couple so I got to play some...Now, I am a member at a 9 hole course that has very little "trouble", no sand traps, mows the fairways at 3/4", changes the pins every other day, has a suspect irrigation system and is still too wet, and hacked up tees, BUT a nice bar and a great group of regulars...Many are millenials.


I walk nine just about every morning before anyone is out there in just over an hour...I carry a handful of clubs in my Ping Moonlight bag...My game has gotten so much better I think because I don't have to think so much..."what club to hit", "where to hit it" "why is the group ahead so slow" etc etc....and, most importantly, my joy of golf has returned.

[John Emerson]

I know this horse has been beat to death, but the business model at Sweetens Cove is what I see as gold.  Especially for millennials and generation X’ers.  They have good golf that can be played quickly with tons of quirk with a super laid back atmosphere.  If I lived remotely close I’d join this place in a heartbeat.  A great “hang” and all around fun.  No clubhouse, no parking lot no nothing.  Just golf and and hanging out.

[John Kavanaugh]

I know this horse has been beat to death, but the business model at Sweetens Cove is what I see as gold.  Especially for millennials and generation X’ers.  They have good golf that can be played quickly with tons of quirk with a super laid back atmosphere.  If I lived remotely close I’d join this place in a heartbeat.  A great “hang” and all around fun.  No clubhouse, no parking lot no nothing.  Just golf and and hanging out.

Have you ever gotten a quote on what it costs to join Sweetens? Wow, wow, wow. 

[Wayne_Kozun]

The desire to join a club can be very location specific as well.  I live in Toronto and there is lots of very good golf in this area, both public and private.  But the public golf is almost all a long way from the city and traffic continues to get worse.  So one of the advantages of joining one of the traditional private clubs in the city is that you can significantly shorten the all-in time to play a round of golf.  Simply put, you can play golf on Saturday or Sunday and be home by noon.  Yes, you could go play a similar quality public course, but in most instances it would be a full day affair with a one hour drive each way, and a 5 hour, rather than 4 hour, round of golf.

[George Smiltins]

The desire to join a club can be very location specific as well.  I live in Toronto and there is lots of very good golf in this area, both public and private.  But the public golf is almost all a long way from the city and traffic continues to get worse.  So one of the advantages of joining one of the traditional private clubs in the city is that you can significantly shorten the all-in time to play a round of golf.  Simply put, you can play golf on Saturday or Sunday and be home by noon.  Yes, you could go play a similar quality public course, but in most instances it would be a full day affair with a one hour drive each way, and a 5 hour, rather than 4 hour, round of golf.

I completely agree with John Emerson's stance on Sweetens, and Wayne is exactly right about proximity/overall time of play driving a lot of this.


I'm technically a millennial living just outside Cleveland, and the only way for me to play quick, quality golf was to join a club. I hate all the dining emails telling me what the Tuesday afternoon lunch specials are (great soups but I'm not going to leave work and sit in an empty clubhouse eating them) and ESPECIALLY HATE having to take a caddie certain times of the day. BUT, I'm currently just too addicted to the game (and my wife will simply not allow me to be out of the house a minute over 4.5 hours on the weekends) so for the time-being I will keep paying my dues (even in winter which I think is weird when the clubhouse is shutdown much of that time).


I think Cleveland had a real opportunity with Acacia to do something Sweetens-ish (9/12 holes or at least keep the range open). Would have been the only game in town.

[Sean_A]

I know this horse has been beat to death, but the business model at Sweetens Cove is what I see as gold.  Especially for millennials and generation X’ers.  They have good golf that can be played quickly with tons of quirk with a super laid back atmosphere.  If I lived remotely close I’d join this place in a heartbeat.  A great “hang” and all around fun.  No clubhouse, no parking lot no nothing.  Just golf and and hanging out.

No clubhouse of any type?  Not even a trailer?  And people like this?

Ciao

[Bernie Bell]

"but the business model at Sweetens Cove is what I see as gold."

This may be right, but I have some questions.  What exactly is the business model?  Does it make money?  Are the low prices sustainable for these new investors who are presumably expecting a return?  What % of rounds are local repeats versus one-timers?  Is the model replicable in major metro areas where millennials tend to gravitate?