How much credit does MacKenzie deserve for the firm and fast RM?

[mike_malone]

I love the course but when a ball rolls over the green Dan Hicks says “ there’s Dr. MacKenzie again”. Is that true?


 I appreciate he gets enormous credit for the routing, the design of the holes, and the features but not the current speed and firmness.

[Jim Sherma]

How much credit should any golden age architect get for modern playing conditions and how they impact architectural choices made 80+ years ago?

[Mike_Clayton]

Claude Crockford was the superintendent at Royal Melbourne for about 40 years. He thought a green could barely be too hard or too fast and was setting the course up that way in the 1960s -and probably earlier.
I first watched tournament golf there at the 1972 World Cup and it was the greens were same speed and firmness as they are now.
The biggest difference (in summer) was they had couch (bermuda) running all the way to the front of the greens - and now there is the ring of fescue.

[Jason Topp]

Claude Crockford was the superintendent at Royal Melbourne for about 40 years. He thought a green could barely be too hard or too fast and was setting the course up that way in the 1960s -and probably earlier.
I first watched tournament golf there at the 1972 World Cup and it was the greens were same speed and firmness as they are now.
The biggest difference (in summer) was they had couch (bermuda) running all the way to the front of the greens - and now there is the ring of fescue.

Mike:


It seems really goofy on 15 with  the grass change dictating whether a 2nd shot stops or runs forever.  From television it does not bother me too much on other holes.  Do you like the ring of fescue?

[Jerry Kluger]

I heard someone comment on the broadcast that the sand went down nearly 80 feet and the type of sand drains especially well.  My uneducated thinking is that if the course drains extremely well it would naturally be really firm and fast.  Aren't many courses too soft because of overwatering combined with lack of drainage?

[Derek_Duncan]

Growing tight, consistent golf course grass was a work in progress in the 1920s. Growing grass on sand was even more difficult. Turf conditions on most courses were seasonal. Ideal playing characteristics (not ideal grass) at Melbourne probably occurred for a few months a year.


The course was always going to play fast (if allowed) because of location, but the greenkeepers probably didn't start to get everything dialed until after WW2. MacKenzie may have designed elements in anticipation of firm and fast conditions, but it's unlikely he should be given any credit for them.

[Tom_Doak]

Dr. MacKenzie is not maintaining any of the grass.  However, he should get quite a bit of credit for designing a course that can be played in such conditions.


That's not an accident.  Mowing heights 90 years ago were not at all comparable to what they are today, but the compensating factor was that most golf courses were not irrigated - at all.  Anywhere there were sandy soils, rock-hard conditions prevailed, and courses had to be designed with that in mind.


Bobby Jones remarked in his later years [1950's] that St. Andrews was not nearly as firm and fast a playing surface as it was when he first played there.

[Ronald Montesano]

Invite Dan Hicks to the treehouse.


Current superintendent, under the direction of Els, Ogilvy and Co., deserve credit for the fast and firm this week. God and Mother Nature also have a hand in things.


Just wait for Sunday hole locations. They will tempt the USA to fire at flags, and that might make the difference in the matches outcome.

[Adam Clayman]

IMO, He deserves credit for passing on the principles that have not been lost, the way they've been lost on other continents. It took those who listened to him, their protege's, and some cultural trait that resulted in greater objective reasoning, to keep the egos at bay.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Bobby Jones remarked in his later years [1950's] that St. Andrews was not nearly as firm and fast a playing surface as it was when he first played there.

This is super interesting.

[Thomas Dai]

Wouldn’t one of the less obvious, perhaps even one of the hidden arts of routing a course be in recognising areas where the most appropriate grasses, vegetation etc will grow to provide the best playing surfaces?
And similarly with feature design, designing/constructioning in such a manor as to maximise rainwater gathering and utilisation in the most appropriate areas?
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

Invite Dan Hicks to the treehouse.

Current superintendent, under the direction of Els, Ogilvy and Co., deserve credit for the fast and firm this week. God and Mother Nature also have a hand in things.

Ron:


We have worked with the superintendent, Richard Forsyth, for a few years now.  Trust me, he did not need a lot of "direction" in getting the place firm and fast.  That's the tradition at Royal Melbourne, and that's what he's been working to restore since he got there, after being the head man for a bunch of years at Metropolitan.

[David_Elvins]

I love the course but when a ball rolls over the green Dan Hicks says “ there’s Dr. MacKenzie again”. Is that true?


 I appreciate he gets enormous credit for the routing, the design of the holes, and the features but not the current speed and firmness.

Mike,


90%+ of golf courses have a design that prohibits them being prepared this firm and fast and whilst also being playable to all level of golfers.


He deserves all the credit.

[Neil_Crafter]

The architectural heritage of Royal Melbourne West is quite complex. While Mackenzie routed a course before he left Melbourne at the end of November 1926 - never to return - the job for his partner Alex Russell was complicated by the club purchasing an additional parcel of land - Bumford's Block as it was known - and so the course needed modifying to utilise this additional land along Cheltenham Road. By the time construction started on the West Course a couple of years had elapsed since MacKenzie's visit. Apart from the 5th West that MacKenzie designed and supervised while he was in Melbourne, the rest of the course was down to Russell and Mick Morcom. For a while Russell was off the scene when the committee wanted to do something he didn't agree with and he escaped to his country property for the better part of a year, not even playing pennants for RM. Committee man H M Ross, who had been co-supervisior of the course with Russell then took over on his own. The club was in a turmoil about the location and cost of a new clubhouse and eventually the committee was overthrown. In the subsequent election Russell stood and garnered more votes than any other candidate. He was then given sole responsibility for completing the West Course and around this time began his design of the new East Course.


So when a golfer goes over a green on the West course holes on RM Composite it is really more a case of "there's Alex Russell again" or maybe even "there's H M Ross again" and when its an East course hole then it is most definitely "there's Alex Russell again." 

[Sean_A]

The architectural heritage of Royal Melbourne West is quite complex. While Mackenzie routed a course before he left Melbourne at the end of November 1926 - never to return - the job for his partner Alex Russell was complicated by the club purchasing an additional parcel of land - Bumford's Block as it was known - and so the course needed modifying to utilise this additional land along Cheltenham Road. By the time construction started on the West Course a couple of years had elapsed since MacKenzie's visit. Apart from the 5th West that MacKenzie designed and supervised while he was in Melbourne, the rest of the course was down to Russell and Mick Morcom. For a while Russell was off the scene when the committee wanted to do something he didn't agree with and he escaped to his country property for the better part of a year, not even playing pennants for RM. Committee man H M Ross, who had been co-supervisior of the course with Russell then took over on his own. The club was in a turmoil about the location and cost of a new clubhouse and eventually the committee was overthrown. In the subsequent election Russell stood and garnered more votes than any other candidate. He was then given sole responsibility for completing the West Course and around this time began his design of the new East Course.


So when a golfer goes over a green on the West course holes on RM Composite it is really more a case of "there's Alex Russell again" or maybe even "there's H M Ross again" and when its an East course hole then it is most definitely "there's Alex Russell again."

Neil

Thank you very much! When is your book due to be published?

Happy Hockey