"I Think the cultural momentum behind walking . . . is too strong."

[Tom_Doak]

- John Kavanaugh?  No.


First I should provide the fuller quote, so I'm not taking him out of context:


"Although I doubt the West will adopt the East's model for caddies, Sharon Park from Nine Bridges drove a five-person cart that held four sets of clubs.  . . . Astonishing as caddies like Sharon are, I think the cultural momentum behind walking and purism typified by places like Bandon Dunes is too strong."




Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinion.  It's just that this opinion was expressed as an aside by Max Adler, the new managing editor of GOLF DIGEST, in his December column . . . which was about golf in Asia, and had nothing at all to do with his aside.  So he must really have wanted to make his point.


It's hard enough fighting the corporate golf mindset without the golf magazines being sold out to their cause.  But, if we've learned anything from the last few years of politics, it's that the media and large corporations are one and the same.

[Kyle Harris]

Not strong enough.


All publications exist to sell advertising.

[Tom_Doak]

Not strong enough.


All publications exist to sell advertising.

Yeah, but to whom are they selling?  Club Car doesn't put ads in GOLF DIGEST.

[Kyle Harris]

Not strong enough.


All publications exist to sell advertising.

Yeah, but to whom are they selling?  Club Car doesn't put ads in GOLF DIGEST.

No, but the walking ethos guys are still the fringe to many. Precious few subscribers to Golf Digest are getting Caddie Magazine or The Golfers' Journal, as well.

[Mark_Fine]

We have a strong caddie program a my home club Lehigh CC.  That said, many courses are not that fortunate.  We also know many clubs would not survive without the income from carts.  Furthermore, many golfers are older and simply can't walk 18 holes anymore with or without carrying a golf bag or dragging a trolley.  I would love to see more pull carts accepted at private clubs.  Sadly they are frowned upon 

[Peter Pallotta]

I didn't even understand it. I had to read it three times. It was poor writing -- the kind that comes when you're trying to take a stand and not take a stand at the same time, when you're not saying what you actually mean to say. 

What struck me was the specific mention of Bandon, which suggests the quote was actually meant to market GD as the "not-Golf Magazine" magazine -- ostensibly the magazine for golfers who focus on 'playing golf' and not on 'culture'. 

Maybe GD wants to better carve out the 'populist' niche and leave the 'elitism' to Golf Magazine -- populist being the latest equipment and tips to prepare your game for tough tests, elitist being a focus on quality gca and the game's walking traditions.   

[Don Mahaffey]

I’ve long thought golf has undersold the wellness aspect of the game.
Walking, socializing, solving puzzles, outdoors in natural setting. 
But then none of those are big business.

[Jim_Coleman]

   I realize it’s not pc here, but I find those who poo poo riding to be pompous and holier than thou.  Those who enjoy walking should do so.  But don’t judge those who prefer to ride.  They’re enjoying golf too.

[Lou_Duran]

Not strong enough.


All publications exist to sell advertising.

And you cut greens not to make a living, but because you love golf and your fellow man.   


There are numerous reasons why people in the U.S. prefer riding, ease of play being a big one.


Ironically, we like short, wide courses on this site with fewer bunkers, water hazards (PAs), and areas with high rough.  I think we do so because we too prefer ease.  And even though we write lamenting the use of riding carts, that preference is not widely reflected at affiliated events.  Include the cost of riding into the greenfee, and the walking ethic is quickly diluted.

[MCirba]

Call me pompous but after watching "Tommy's Honour" last nite I find it very sad and troubling that golf has largely moved away from its roots as an adventurous, athletic contest of man vs nature to a ride around with a cooler full of beers form of low-impact entertainment.

[Tom_Doak]

What struck me was the specific mention of Bandon, which suggests the quote was actually meant to market GD as the "not-Golf Magazine" magazine -- ostensibly the magazine for golfers who focus on 'playing golf' and not on 'culture'. 

Maybe GD wants to better carve out the 'populist' niche and leave the 'elitism' to Golf Magazine -- populist being the latest equipment and tips to prepare your game for tough tests, elitist being a focus on quality gca and the game's walking traditions.   

Yes, GOLF DIGEST has definitely taken a turn toward popular culture in the past couple of years . . . putting Paulina Gretzky on the cover last year caused a small backlash from the LPGA Tour, and the article about smoking pot on the golf course was something I never expected to see in GOLF DIGEST !


Perhaps they got some backlash from other golf course owners after Jerry Tarde lionized Mike Keiser a month or two ago, and they felt like they needed to backhand Bandon Dunes in passing just to seem unbiased.  [You would be amazed how often stuff like that happens in the golf media.]


But, the quote I pulled out was embedded in a column about Golf in Asia as a model for the future . . . specifically, follow up to a golf conference at Nine Bridges [hmmm . . .]   He identifies as three "good trends" that one-third of all new golf-course projects are in Asia, led by many notables in Vietnam; that golf tourism is just behind medical tourism [!] in Thailand in per-capita spending; and that the rise of simulator golf and the de-privatization of clubs in Korea is increasing access.


I guess maybe simulator companies advertise in GOLF DIGEST, too . . . or just pay them to promote it as an alternative?  Actually, maybe that's what the golf cart companies do.




I found his aside about walking totally out of place, because I played a lot of golf in Asia over a two-year period for Volume 5 of The Confidential Guide.  I played in India, Sri Lanka, Nepal, South Korea, The Philippines, and Japan.  And the most noticeable thing they had in common was a strong walking culture with caddie programs, even in hot and humid environments where most of the people on this discussion group would break down and take a cart.  [In South Korea, you can usually jump in the cart that your caddie uses to drive the clubs around, but in most of the others, golf carts are still frowned upon.]


The second most noticeable difference between golf in Asia and in the U.S. was the strong presence of women, both as caddies and maintenance workers, and as golfers.  Meanwhile, next month, Max Adler will go to a conference in the U.S. talking about how to increase participation in golf among women, and never think to ask what they are doing differently in Asia.  Of course, the main thing they have done differently is to promote women's golf on a par with [if not ahead of] the men's tour, because of the success of Asian golfers on the LPGA Tour and worldwide.

[Tom_Doak]

Call me pompous but after watching "Tommy's Honour" last nite I find it very sad and troubling that golf has largely moved away from its roots as an adventurous, athletic contest of man vs nature to a ride around with a cooler full of beers form of low-impact entertainment.

Thirty years ago, a friend of mine who grew up in Europe sighed and said, "Americans are going to ruin golf," and indeed we have tried our damnedest.  Our country sells itself on rugged individualism, but it's really all about consumerism, which is the exact opposite.

[MCirba]

Thirty years ago, a friend of mine who grew up in Europe sighed and said, "Americans are going to ruin golf," and indeed we have tried our damnedest.  Our country sells itself on rugged individualism, but it's really all about consumerism, which is the exact opposite.

Tom,


I'm all for someone with a disability or infirm from age-related physical issues extending their playing years by riding but it drives me nuts when I see reasonably young, seemingly healthy folks plopping their asses into carts as if getting on the latest thrill ride at Disney.  I would argue that a lot of the shittiest architecture of the past forty years has reflected that attitude.


Is it any wonder this has now evolved into Top Golf, where we really don't have to ambulate at all as if that would be a tiring distraction from our wings, shots, and beers?

[Tom_Doak]

Is it any wonder this has now evolved into Top Golf, where we really don't have to ambulate at all as if that would be a tiring distraction from our wings, shots, and beers?

I've got no problem with Top Golf.  It's gotten tons of young people in my kids' generation to try out the game, when they would never do so otherwise.  I doubt that many of them are going to make the conversion to the real thing, precisely because they are not making the connection to it being a walking, outdoorsy pastime.  So they'll hit the gym the next morning, instead.


But, hell, I went to the gym more times than I played golf this year!

[Lou_Duran]

Ironically, I heard it more than a few times on the other side of the pond that without American visitors, Scottish golf would be near death.  You know, that terrible consumerism that buys £400k of rain suits in a 3-4 month period at Royal Dornoch, puts £3+M in greenfees at RCD, and keeps hundreds of middle age caddies employed at a tax-free daily wage considerably higher than their opportunity costs.  I wonder what percentage of visitors to Bandon Dunes derive their disposable income from entities other than "big business" and "big government".


Mike Cirba,


Why should you care?  Why do you denigrate how other people wish to enjoy their life?  Are you that cock-sure of your preferences and values?  And why do you keep badmouthing the architecture of the past 40 years?


From my standpoint, there are many more quality, accessible courses today than when I first began playing golf in the 1970s.  Not only is there more, better golf available, but it is often cheaper after adjusting for inflation.  Even the better clubs and balls are cheaper and with a wider selection, and because that awful "consumerism" and short product cycles, one can acquire a great set of clubs a couple generations old for $200-$300.


You don't like riding, fine walk!  You don't like riders, that's a personal problem you would be better off overcoming.  Otherwise, there are probably a few walking only courses you can find or, better yet, form a group of like-minded individuals and build your own.  Maybe Tom Doak would design it for you if you covered his travel expenses (wouldn't hold my breath).


Consider how your Cobb Creek would operate sans carts.  Better jack up the greenfees and employ an adopt-a-hole volunteer force to maintain the course.  PERSPECTIVE!     

[Carl Rogers]

I’ve long thought golf has undersold the wellness aspect of the game.
Walking, socializing, solving puzzles, outdoors in natural setting. 
But then none of those are big business.

This rings true to me.  No return on investment possible.
Let's have the:
- 9 club set that is lighter to carry
- 6, 9 & 12 hole "round"


In my heart, I want to believe in the idea of the caddie, but my head says otherwise.  Is it a practical way for an adult to earn a living?  I caddied as youngster for about $1.75 an hour (middle 60's).  As I grew up, I realized what being a 4th class citizen I was back then.  I learned to separate the game from all the trappings of the game.


My head also tells me the game and thus the course would collapse if not for consumer model.


I do not consider myself altogether holier than thow.

[MCirba]

Ironically, I heard it more than a few times on the other side of the pond that without American visitors, Scottish golf would be near death.  You know, that terrible consumerism that buys £400k of rain suits in a 3-4 month period at Royal Dornoch, puts £3+M in greenfees at RCD, and keeps hundreds of middle age caddies employed at a tax-free daily wage considerably higher than their opportunity costs.  I wonder what percentage of visitors to Bandon Dunes derive their disposable income from entities other than "big business" and "big government".


Mike Cirba,


Why should you care?  Why do you denigrate how other people wish to enjoy their life?  Are you that cock-sure of your preferences and values?  And why do you keep badmouthing the architecture of the past 40 years?


From my standpoint, there are many more quality, accessible courses today than when I first began playing golf in the 1970s.  Not only is there more, better golf available, but it is often cheaper after adjusting for inflation.  Even the better clubs and balls are cheaper and with a wider selection, and because that awful "consumerism" and short product cycles, one can acquire a great set of clubs a couple generations old for $200-$300.


You don't like riding, fine walk!  You don't like riders, that's a personal problem you would be better off overcoming.  Otherwise, there are probably a few walking only courses you can find or, better yet, form a group of like-minded individuals and build your own.  Maybe Tom Doak would design it for you if you covered his travel expenses (wouldn't hold my breath).


Consider how your Cobb Creek would operate sans carts.  Better jack up the greenfees and employ an adopt-a-hole volunteer force to maintain the course.  PERSPECTIVE!     

Wow, Lou...a lot to unpack there but I will just say I'm all for economic models that work and are sustainable.  Not sure how you inferred all of that from what I wrote but I won't defend points I never made in the first place.  If higher green fees for walkers are required to cover expenses that's economic reality.


Ideally, Cobb's Creek will be walking only with caddies but that won't be my decision.

[Sean_A]

Carts are not an issue if used sensibly. For me, the far bigger issue with carts are cart paths.


Happy Hockey

[Kalen Braley]

Very interesting topic gents, and certainly both sides have valid arguments.

On one hand I totally get and appreciate the history of the game and golf as a walking adventure.  The one offs like Bandon are special, they can totally get away with walking only and thrive... but would the average DS 1-4 publics survive without carts and the F&B revenue of snacks and beer they can now stow on those carts? How many of these would already have gone under with no cart revenue and golfers who chose to play elsewhere?

P.S.  Lou sure makes one helluva great point with the American financial impact at GB&I courses.  But then again, still don't understand why more US privates don't adopt same model...

[V_Halyard]

Cirba... as of this writing. Wtf is I happening in Miami to your Eagles?

I love to walk and my hope for my kids when they learned, they would learn the joy of walking with their pals.
I have a friend that is horrified by Sand Valley and Bandon and will likely retire in the Villages with a pair of custom Ford Vs Ferrari inspired golf carts. We don’t play golf together which is a shame, but that is self selecting. We can’t enjoy the way each other play.

I am not overly motivated to join a group that has to blast music in a cart at 39mph to enjoy a round. I will occasionally with some pals. That said, I am glad they are playing at a place they enjoy. I try to play places that I enjoy. I ride but prefer to walk. So the Bandon’s and Sand Valleys are kind of refuges for me. I also favor a healthy golf economy vs. a walkers only hardline.

Some telling imagery from a recent GCA event. The GCA crew went out early in 4somes 80-90% walkers. The member groups that followed likes like  swarms of singles in carts. The juxtaposition was be jarring. That said, it’s their club, the tee sheet at this private classic gem was full with local and national member play, with a waiting list for cancellations, which in this economy, is the measure.

[Tom_Doak]

Ironically, I heard it more than a few times on the other side of the pond that without American visitors, Scottish golf would be near death.  You know, that terrible consumerism that buys £400k of rain suits in a 3-4 month period at Royal Dornoch, puts £3+M in greenfees at RCD, and keeps hundreds of middle age caddies employed at a tax-free daily wage considerably higher than their opportunity costs.  I wonder what percentage of visitors to Bandon Dunes derive their disposable income from entities other than "big business" and "big government".
     

Why is it that the same guys who believe the bottom line is the answer to all arguments, turn on a dime and start projecting other reasoning when discussing a place like Bandon Dunes where the bottom line seems to repudiate their preferred argument?

[MCirba]

Vaughn,


The injury-decimated Eagles are not a good football team.  Sadly, Carson Wentz post injury is no longer one of the league's premier QB seemingly, although to be fair his receiving corp have dropped numerous balls this season, the killer being Ertz's drop today.  But a team can't lose DeSean Jackson,  Darren Sproles, Jordan Matthew, Corey Clement, with Ertz and Alshon playing hurt, Ajai not ready, and achieve any reasonable consistency.


The only good news is that the Cowboys suck too. 

[Bernie Bell]

"Consumerism" is an interesting word.  In the derogatory sense, a preoccupation with the acquisition of consumer goods.  In the positive sense, giving consumers what they want, regardless of what sophisticates may think of their tastes. 


From my US vantage point, in walking golf I see way more derogatory "consumerism" among the self-identified "purists" than the "populists", if I were to accept that division, which I don't.  The woke folk are the ones cross-marketing $1200 walking bags and $500 push carts.  For positive consumerism, I think Sun Mountain and ClicGear are giving the walking golfers what they want, not trying to convince them to buy something they don't need to look cool . . . or in woke-speak, to "fit the ethos."


"Golf as it was meant to be played" has to be one of the most vacuous phrases in golf.  Meant by whom?  I walk whenever I can, probably 90% of rounds.  But why not just play how you want to play without harshing the other guy's mellow because he marches or rides to a different beat.  Stay open-minded.  Try riding your 2d 18 with a few cold beers in the cooler one afternoon.  You might have fun.

[Tom_Doak]

"Consumerism" is an interesting word.  In the derogatory sense, a preoccupation with the acquisition of consumer goods.  In the positive sense, giving consumers what they want, regardless of what sophisticates may think of their tastes. 

The word giving is doing a lot of work in that sentence.


I might be more inclined to think that they are selling consumers what they make.  Of course, your argument about expensive walking golf bags also fits that sentiment.

[Rob Marshall]

What’s wrong with taking your push cart and going out to play golf? I don’t ever take a cart unless required too. Do I want to take a caddie? No, not unless I’m required too. I’ve been a member at a mid level private club for 30 years. Golf is expensive as it is. Why do I need to pay $80 to $100 for a caddie every round. If my club and many others in my town required caddies or a cart they would be out of business.


I don’t see carts as a course survival tool at least in the northeast.