"I Think the cultural momentum behind walking . . . is too strong."

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Do you guys really believe that banning carts anywhere is the first step in a Machivellian plot to ban them everywhere?

I don't, and while I didn't re-read every post here, I'm not sure I saw that sentiment offered by anyone. Maybe I missed the post(s) where someone(s) said this?

[Tom_Doak]

I'm not sure I saw that sentiment offered by anyone. Maybe I missed the post(s) where someone(s) said this?

It was an extension of the political analogy, which I would guess you recognized, but instead ignored to "go literal" - another favorite tactic used by both sides of the political spectrum.

[archie_struthers]

 


I love walking and don't mind carrying my own bag. But 90% of my friends that play don't prefer to walk. Many of these guys are in excellent health and younger than me. Most play pretty well and almost all like to play a lot. Its hard to convince them to walk and its a treat for me when I go to a place where its mandatory. It would be really expensive to take caddies at the current rates if you play a lot of golf.


So although I favor walking, love caddies and know how much carts beat up golf courses its pretty hard for me to get on the side of anyone who bashes the use of the electric buggies!

[Peter Pallotta]

I was just about to return to the original post, and to that very point i.e. the use of the word "cultural"

It is interesting that of all the accurate/factual words Mr Adler could've used to describe the cart-use at Nine Bridges (e.g. practical, efficient, profitable) he used "astonishing" instead; and that of all the accurate/factual ways he could've characterized & explained walking (e.g. traditional, less expensive, healthier) he chalked it up to "cultural momentum and purism" instead.

That's not very friendly, or fair-minded it seems to me. [In that it does remind me of many political 'debates' these days, where each side casts the other in the worst possible light, but sometimes tries to hide it by using ostensibly value-neutral language.]   I mean, even for me "cultural momentum" has a vaguely dictatorial tinge to it, and "purism" is pretty darn close to Puritanism.

Which is to say: I think that's part of the reason for my initial take/reaction on this thread. To approach the subject the way he did, it sure must 'mean' (and be about) a *lot* more for Mr A than merely whether more or less people are taking carts.

But what?

 

[William_G]

I'm not sure I saw that sentiment offered by anyone. Maybe I missed the post(s) where someone(s) said this?

It was an extension of the political analogy, which I would guess you recognized, but instead ignored to "go literal" - another favorite tactic used by both sides of the political spectrum.

only a Vulkan mind meld will solve these problems LOL

[William_G]

So what is the root cause for why more people are riding in carts vs. walking?  Maybe it is because the most admired architects like C&C built “cartball” courses like The Plantation Course at Kapalua 20 plus years ago and started or at least added to this whole mess we are in   It sure didn’t help showing the world that you can build a great golf course that is not walkable unless you are a billy goat or like cross country hiking and six hour rounds (even the pros during a tournament get carted around between holes).  I love to walk (honestly it is hard to appreciate a golf course riding in a cart), but some people aren’t there to admire the details of the architecture, they are there for other reasons and that is just fine.  At least they are participating in some way in the sport.  I just played in a tournament in Maui two weeks ago and half the people that played would not have been able to walk the golf course we played (the Emerald Course at Wailea).  And for a shotgun start with groups on all 18 tees it would be pretty tough to get the event going without carts.  There is a purpose for carts and I don’t think it has ruined the game of golf.  For many it has extended the time they can play the game.  And by the way, I have NEVER been to a golf course that didn’t allow me to walk.  I might have been forced to take a caddie if I didn’t want to ride, or take a forecaddie and let him or her drive the cart or pay for the cart anyway and just carry my own bag or take a trolley, but I could always find a way to walk if I wanted to. 


More courses are closing than opening these days.  If we took carts away, guess what would happen.  To each his own!

I walk Plantation, but the walk form 9 green to 10 tee is no bueno


tough site for walking, but beautiful for home, lunch, dinner and golf

[Erik J. Barzeski]

It was an extension of the political analogy, which I would guess you recognized, but instead ignored to "go literal" - another favorite tactic used by both sides of the political spectrum.

I avoid politics, as I know little about it ("them"?). Perhaps you're reading into things that which is not there, Tom?

Or maybe it is there, and I'm the only one not seeing it. I don't know.

[John Emerson]

The biggest problem with walking many public courses is the distances between greens and tees.  I mean some of these drives are insane!  It makes it almost impossible to walk these modern style courses.

[John Kavanaugh]

The biggest problem with walking many public courses is the distances between greens and tees.  I mean some of these drives are insane!  It makes it almost impossible to walk these modern style courses.

They really aren't impossible to walk. They are impossible to walk as quickly as taking a cart.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

They really aren't impossible to walk. They are impossible to walk as quickly as taking a cart.

Agreed. If you can walk down a 550-yard par-5, you can walk 300 yards from a green to a tee.

It feels different, sure. But it's just walking.

[Mark_Fine]

William,
That is impressive!  I have only walked it once, that was enough 


My favorite cart story - I was running really late coming up from Chicago and pulled up to the bag drop at Milwaukee CC.  As I got out of the car, the attendant yelled to an old guy sitting patiently in a cart, “your partner in finally here”!  Then another member came up to me, introduced himself and said, “Since you are running late, we decided to just include you in our mid-week throw in tourney.  You will be playing with Joe and I need $20 and your handicap.”  I am thinking great, I am at one of my favorite golf courses and I now get stuck in a tournament playing with the only guy who has a cart and he can barely get out of it to shake my hand.” We all had caddies except for my partner Joe.  As it turned out, Joe reached two par fives in two, shot 75 (he missed a ten footer on 18 to shoot his age).  We won the throw in!  Joe was not only a great golfer, but a real gentleman and a retired surgeon from Chicago who had developed bad arthritis in both knees and struggled to walk.  Thank goodness for carts or he would have had to give up the game. 

[William_G]

The biggest problem with walking many public courses is the distances between greens and tees.  I mean some of these drives are insane!  It makes it almost impossible to walk these modern style courses.

Fazio
Fazio
Fazio

[Joe Zucker]

They really aren't impossible to walk. They are impossible to walk as quickly as taking a cart.

Agreed. If you can walk down a 550-yard par-5, you can walk 300 yards from a green to a tee.

It feels different, sure. But it's just walking.

I don't think that's really the question.  Walking one extra par 5 is fine (many 'walkable' courses have an awkward transition somewhere), but it's more often walking 300 yards from tee to green 5 to 10 times.  So by the end of the round, you've essentially walked 27 holes, but only played 18. 

[William_G]

William,
That is impressive!  I have only walked it once, that was enough 


My favorite cart story - I was running really late coming up from Chicago and pulled up to the bag drop at Milwaukee CC.  As I got out of the car, the attendant yelled to an old guy sitting patiently in a cart, “your partner in finally here”!  Then another member came up to me, introduced himself and said, “Since you are running late, we decided to just include you in our mid-week throw in tourney.  You will be playing with Joe and I need $20 and your handicap.”  I am thinking great, I am at one of my favorite golf courses and I now get stuck in a tournament playing with the only guy who has a cart and he can barely get out of it to shake my hand.” We all had caddies except for my partner Joe.  As it turned out, Joe reached two par fives in two, shot 75 (he missed a ten footer on 18 to shoot his age).  We won the throw in!  Joe was not only a great golfer, but a real gentleman and a retired surgeon from Chicago who had developed bad arthritis in both knees and struggled to walk.  Thank goodness for carts or he would have had to give up the game.

yes!
got off a redeye drove to Shoreacres played that and walked/carried
then drove to Erin Hills played walked with caddie
easy


FWIW, I play golf with guys all the time who walk everyday with double hip replacements and single knee replacements, haven't seen the double knee yet, and thankfully I'm not in those categories


cheers

[John Kavanaugh]

That is a strange coincidence. I play with people too.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I don't think that's really the question.  Walking one extra par 5 is fine (many 'walkable' courses have an awkward transition somewhere), but it's more often walking 300 yards from tee to green 5 to 10 times.  So by the end of the round, you've essentially walked 27 holes, but only played 18.

John's point, and mine, is that walking 27 holes is not "impossible," it's just not preferable by many.

[Mark_Fine]

William,
Shoreacres is a relaxing walk, Erin Hills is not! 


Walking The Plantation Course is more like a mountain hike.  I am impressed.  You sound like you walk everywhere.  Walking some of these course is one thing.  Playing golf while you do it is another 

[John Kavanaugh]

Few golfers play because they love carts while many play because they love to walk. This in turn leads to little resistance when your local course becomes a park. It is not an unrealistic stretch to see how a cultural momentum behind walking combined with one against competition could lead to more course closures. Why pay for golf and all the environmental issues associated with maintaining conditions for competition when a simple natural park can provide as much enjoyment? If we want to protect the game we can not let the walk outshine the competition or we will end up with nothing but a fashion show in the park.

[John Kavanaugh]

What would be an interesting study would be to look at the instagram culture as it relates to golf. Are more people interested in how nature relates to golf or how golf relates to nature? I believe that the trend towards drone pictures of golf courses indicates some truth in my fear. Pictures are getting further and further away from the land where the competition takes place and focusing more about how the earth interacts with the placement of the course. We have gone from individual strokes, to individual holes, to complete courses all in a very short period of time.

[William_G]

That is a strange coincidence. I play with people too.

where?
when?
how?
LOL

[William_G]

What would be an interesting study would be to look at the instagram culture as it relates to golf. Are more people interested in how nature relates to golf or how golf relates to nature? I believe that the trend towards drone pictures of golf courses indicates some truth in my fear. Pictures are getting further and further away from the land where the competition takes place and focusing more about how the earth interacts with the placement of the course. We have gone from individual strokes, to individual holes, to complete courses all in a very short period of time.

the woke folks and IG folks are all about the staged pic for posting online, Bandon is a good location for that

[John Kavanaugh]

After spending my entire life playing golf I am afraid the game has become to fragile to splinter into multiple cultures. Even this site itself is a Breakfast Club of sorts struggling to survive.

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark Fine early doors you said many golfers cannot walk 18 dragging their clubs around. Come to Deal where 4 or 5 members have buggy permits, dozens and dozens of old and some not so old men do perfectly well with an electric trolley. Or maybe try Rye with it’s crumpled dunes and ageing membership, they survive with zero buggy use and 3h15m rounds as standard. The human body is actually a pretty resilient piece of kit if used on a regular basis.

[Thomas Dai]

If you really need to ride, and I would classify really need as the likes of ill health, physical infirmity, extreme heat and severity of terrain, then by all means use a buggy .. let's keep those who might otherwise drop out of the game participating. Otherwise, walkies time.
atb

[Mike Sweeney]

In my real life, I work with the Developmentally Disabled which is going through huge shifts in their lives. There is a story that an ICF (Intermediate Care Facility) was closed and when the 15 Residents were moved, 12 of them did not need a wheelchair when they went to new living accommodations:


https://opwdd.ny.gov/opwdd_services_supports/residential_opportunities/intermediate_care_facility

Basically the staff at the ICF were some kind of 1) accommodating to Residents, 2) allowing Residents to avoid therapy, and 3) simply being lazy as workers and not doing any real work.

Again, 12 of 15 did NOT need wheelchairs.

Forcing golfers to walk, SAVES LIVES!!

Get out of the cart Jaka!