Are desert golf courses respected architecturally?

[Jeff Schley]

Where does a large percentage of the golfing population travel to in the winter?  Yep snow birds and vacationers head south.  Part of that go to Arizona and Palm Springs. These areas are both some of the most densely populated places for golf courses and most are desert layouts. Minimal rough, perhaps many are resort oriented or for the masses of an aging population.

However, there doesn't seem to be much respect for desert courses. Not only in the US, but what about the Middle East where it is .... yep as dry and sandy as you can get. Quite a few nice golf courses here as well. Yet, while new and not always seen by much of the golfing world they are under the radar as well. I believe the oldest desert course layout is Red Lawrence's Desert Forest in Phoenix area, which was 1962, so certainly no golden age architects had a chance to do any work in these locations.


An indicator of this can be seen in rankings, but also anecdotally there isn't a lot of discussion on desert courses IMO on this board. So are they respected architecturally? Seen as a gimmick and a lesser form of recreation in the winter, than many people's summer hangouts? I want something to look forward to when I transition to God's waiting room!

FYI as a reference only here are some names (not all are desert layouts admittedly)
GD top 5 Arizona courses:   
1 . (1) The Estancia Club (6th hole pictured above), Scottsdale
2. (2) Forest Highlands G.C. (Canyon), Flagstaff ≈
3. (4) Whisper Rock G.C. (Upper), Scottsdale ≈
4. (3) The Stone Canyon Club, Oro Valley ≈
5. (5) Whisper Rock G.C. (Lower), Scottsdale ≈

GD Top Palm Springs
 1. Quarry at LaQuinta 2. Stone Eagle 3. Madison Club 4. The Tradition 5. Bighorn 6. Vintage Club

GD Top UAE courses:1. Majilis Emirates GC 2. Yas Links 3. Jumeriah Golf Estates Earth 4. Abu Dhabi GC 5. Trump International Dubai

EDIT: I give up on formatting

[Tom_Doak]

Desert courses are not especially well respected architecturally.  Reasons why:


1.  They tend to look alike, making it difficult for any of them to become accepted as the consensus best of type.


2.  The majority of them are housing developments, with a golf course as the second priority.


3.  They encourage players to take illegal drops for balls lost in the desert - or at least they were illegal, before the current rules came into effect - and there are a certain percentage of purists on the rating panels who think that is a huge black mark against them.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Forest Highlands is a "parkland" course in northern Arizona.


Yes, Desert Forest in Carefree can be considered " respected architecturally" as it was designed by Red Lawrence,who was well placed among the second generation of American designers. Lawrence emerged from the "Philadelphia School" of golf course architecture as a design assistant at the Merion Golf Club in Ardmore, PA. He worked for and with William S. Flynn at Merion from 1921 to 1932.
It was continually ranked as #1 in AZ for many years until recently.

https://www.desertforestgolfclub.com/golf-course/robert-red-lawrence


RTJ designed 2 courses in AZ that were well received nationally- Wigwam Gold and Rio Rico.


San Marco and Phoenix CC ( home of the Champions Tour Schwab Cup )  are two prominent courses,  designed by Henry Collis in the 1920s.




http://archive.azcentral.com/sports/golf/articles/20120212golf-arizona-centennial-history.html


Apache Stronghold( Doak) was once highly rated and, as many here have said, " the bones are still there" but location and poor conditions have made it just a " what could have been" course.

[Adam Lawrence]

Anyone who puts Emirates GC Majlis above Yas Links needs their head examining.

[Tom_Doak]

RTJ designed 2 courses in AZ that were well received nationally- Wigwam Gold and Rio Rico.

San Marco and Phoenix CC ( home of the Champions Tour Schwab Cup )  are two prominent courses,  designed by Henry Collis in the 1920s.



Apache Stronghold( Doak) was once highly rated and, as many here have said, " the bones are still there" but location and poor conditions have made it just a " what could have been" course.

More like a "what briefly was" course.


Did any of the four older courses incorporate "desert" in any meaningful way?  I have always figured Desert Forest was the first true example of a desert course.

[Peter Pallotta]

I find myself thinking that one day an architect might find a brand new way to incorporate/reflect a desert setting into a golf course -- maybe by putting a desert in the middle of a golf course instead of a golf course in the middle of a desert. For me that's the only real way forward, in an environment where (almost by definition) grass/turf is exceedingly difficult to grow and/or needs continual and significant inputs -- grass/turf that, traditionally, has been such a fundamental aspect of the game & gca. In truth, I'm not all that interested in knowing whether or not those inputs/water are 'plentiful' and paid for -- it's the principle as much as the sustainability issue. If you're in a setting where 'traditions' and traditional rules don't apply, maybe break with tradition.
P

[Tom_Doak]

I find myself thinking that one day an architect might find a brand new way to incorporate/reflect a desert setting into a golf course

It would make much more sense if courses in the desert were shorter and narrower -- perhaps many of them should be par-3 courses?  Except, of course, that most of them are part of housing developments and the developer insists on full "championship" length so he can host a championship have more frontage for development.

[Peter Pallotta]

Now there's a good idea. (I didn't think of it.)
Maybe a slightly longer version of the very popular Par 3 course at Pinehurst, the Cradle.
But, given the mostly 2nd home/retirement community aspect of U.S. desert golf, it would likely have to be renamed.
The La-Z-boy Recliner Course doesn't work so well. And the obvious alternative to the Cradle is even worse!

[Pete_Pittock]

If you make it shorter the whole course can be played before the heat sets in.  Need to add in the Las Vegas/Mesquite area, N.M.and the El Paso area.

[Jeff Schley]

OK... here is the hand grenade.........this is like Shooter from Hoosiers running the picket fence!


Is Tara Iti a desert course?


Take cover!!!!!!!!!!

[SL_Solow]

Jeff,  In thinking about this thread, I was struck by your introduction.  People flock to the desert (or Florida for that matter) in the winter for the weather, not for the golf.  While golf may be a key activity for many of the snowbirds, the quality of golf is not central. Thus to suggest that there may be a disconnect between the popularity of the venue and the lack of quality in the golf architecture assumes a connection that does not exist.  Tom points out a number of the reasons why the architecture fails to match the weather.  I suggest that the dearth of architectural excellence in Florida is attributable to similar factors and is a further indication of the validity of the underlying premise.

[Jeff Schley]

Jeff,  In thinking about this thread, I was struck by your introduction.  People flock to the desert (or Florida for that matter) in the winter for the weather, not for the golf.  While golf may be a key activity for many of the snowbirds, the quality of golf is not central. Thus to suggest that there may be a disconnect between the popularity of the venue and the lack of quality in the golf architecture assumes a connection that does not exist.  Tom points out a number of the reasons why the architecture fails to match the weather.  I suggest that the dearth of architectural excellence in Florida is attributable to similar factors and is a further indication of the validity of the underlying premise.

Shelly,
Don't be distracted by a bad introduction. 

Agreed, people don't go South just to golf, it is their recreation while there in the winter. Just like the rounds go down to miniscule amounts (or some courses are closed altogether) in the summer. I didn't include Florida in the discussion because they aren't desert courses.  Desert courses should include Las Vegas for sure and perhaps NM/El Paso as Pete notes.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff,
to your question: if I remember correctly from reading here, Tara Iti uses fescue and (again, from memory, maybe faulty) the desert courses use bermuda.
Simplistic no doubt, but I think that's a good way to decide on an answer, in general.
P

[Jeff Schley]

Jeff,
to your question: if I remember correctly from reading here, Tara Iti uses fescue and (again, from memory, maybe faulty) the desert courses use bermuda.
Simplistic no doubt, but I think that's a good way to decide on an answer, in general.
P

Interesting point yes.  Although desert courses mostly overseed with ryegrass in the winter months as the bermuda goes dormant due to temperatures. Florida courses don't (that I'm aware of) for their temps are warmer.

[Mark_Fine]

One of the greatest attributes of golf is the dramatically different playing fields.  There are no two exactly a like in the entire world.  I enjoy playing in the desert, especially during the seasons when it is not 115 degrees.  Desert Forest was always my favorite until someone decided it wasn’t good enough and blew it up     One of my first desert golf experiences was Desert Highlands.  I thought all the “floating fairways” were cool and unique, however, if you couldn’t fade your driver and hit a high cut 2I that landed softly on the greens you were in trouble.  It was designed by Jack Nicklaus and you needed to play like Jack Nicklaus to really enjoy it.  Thank goodness he changed his ways over time.  I still think Talking Stick North has one of the best (simple but complicated) boundary holes I have ever played - it is hole #2 on the North course.  Troon is great but the housing has encroached on it over the years.  I remember my forecaddie telling me one time to aim at the black Webber grill on the deck behind the left greenside bunker - Ugh. Estancia is good but was a bit over shaped for my tastes.  I think Stone Eagle is fabulous and I feel the same about The Quarry at LaQuinta.  I even enjoy The Stadium Course at PGA West.  One thing all these and other desert courses have in common though is that they all had to be built.  There are washes and ravines and natural desert undulations,…, but there are not many found holes on most desert courses.  Maybe that is sadly and unfortunately why they are mostly underrated.  Again, it is the variety of the playing fields that makes this game so interesting and we should embrace these different experiences and respect the talent required to design such interesting courses on mostly barren canvases. 

[Daryl David]

Excellent post, Mark

[William_G]

These 2




Sand Hollow
Shadowcreek


but in general desert golf is no bueno for me, like TD says, plus most if not all is/are a cart gig unless specifically asking to walk

[Tom_Doak]

One thing all these and other desert courses have in common though is that they all had to be built.  There are washes and ravines and natural desert undulations,…, but there are not many found holes on most desert courses.  Maybe that is sadly and unfortunately why they are mostly underrated. 

Apache Stronghold had a lot of "found" holes, I think that's why people liked it so much - and still insisted on talking about it, even after the conditions got bad.


But, perhaps the desert courses are not underrated, and you just like them more than most people do.

[Jerry Kluger]

What about the "high desert" courses like Sand Hills?

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
I liked Apache Stronghold.  It does have very interesting desert terrain so I could see how you could have “found” some holes there.  Been a long time and only played it once but pretty bold greens if I recall correctly. 


As I said, I enjoy the opportunity to experience playing all different kinds of golf courses.  Some people are biased around certain types and styles.  That is unfortunate especially if they are a rater.    I have met some of these and they tend to favor only those certain style designs and discount others.  When they see two courses that couldn’t be more different such as Sand Hills vs PGA West’s Stadium Course, they can’t appreciate and/or reward both for what they are. 


In some ways that is why you don’t want rating panels with all like minded thinkers.  It would be kind of like having a food rating panel with only vegetarians.  You want open minded people who can understand and appreciate all kinds of designs from all kinds of architects without bias. 

[Chris Mavros]

In some ways that is why you don’t want rating panels with all like minded thinkers.  It would be kind of like having a food rating panel with only vegetarians.  You want open minded people who can understand and appreciate all kinds of designs from all kinds of architects without bias.

Well said.  Especially the last sentence. 

[William_G]

What about the "high desert" courses like Sand Hills?

FYI


Not sure anyone considers Nebraska desert, but good thought



High desert is Phoenix, Tucson, Bend, Las Vegas

[Sean_A]

Desert courses better get a reputation because they are gonna be increasingly perceived as on the wrong side of the environment debate.

Happy Hockey

[Thomas Dai]

If you see the native desert terrain where a course a course is scheduled to be built before any work is undertaken and then after completion and a few years later as well then you ought to appreciate the architecture and all that goes with it .. logistics, construction, climate/temperature variation, grass types, irrigation, ongoing maintenance etc etc.
Same for just about any course really. ‘Before’ and ‘after’ and ‘Then’ and ‘now’ comparisons whether in the head or via photos tell a lot.
Atb

[Tom_Doak]

If you see the native desert terrain where a course a course is scheduled to be built before any work is undertaken and then after completion and a few years later as well then you ought to appreciate the architecture and all that goes with it .. logistics, construction, climate/temperature variation, grass types, irrigation, ongoing maintenance etc etc.
Same for just about any course really. ‘Before’ and ‘after’ and ‘Then’ and ‘now’ comparisons whether in the head or via photos tell a lot.

Actually, I think one of the things that holds desert courses back in their assessment is that they all require so much work that they almost inevitably present as "artificial".  The native vegetation has to be kept well outside the boundaries of heavy play.


Of course, the problem may be that the desert is not a natural environment for a golf course to begin with.