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Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
How important is the backdrop?
« on: November 22, 2019, 08:30:12 AM »
We have all seen a zillion golf holes and it really hit me the other day after redoing a par three hole on a course we are renovating that I think turned out fantastic.  The backdrop, however, behind the hole leaves a lot to be desired :-\ 

There has been lots of debate on this site about what constitutes “the golf hole”.  Is the backdrop part of the hole or not? Unfortunately I think it is.  I love the par three hole I redesigned but I am not sure I would hang a painting of it behind my office desk.  Would any of you hang a photo of the 10th hole at Pine Valley or the 11th at St. Andrews if there was a Burger King behind it?  Maybe the backdrop is more important than we think!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2019, 08:47:53 AM »
Mark, I think it is obvious the backdrop/setting is important. The joy to be alive factor is increased when in beautiful surroundings. The question comes down to how much should the setting matter? Of course nobody knows. I just raised this issue with Deal for the rankings thread. Nobody would accuse Deal of being a stunner, but it's pleasant enough. So far as I can tell, the setting is what holds the course back in the rankings. There are few courses in GB&I which are on better land and have better greens.

Happy Hockey
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2019, 09:05:30 AM »
Sean,
I didn’t see your post on Deal but from what you said I agree with you.  I really like that golf course.  Has one of my favorite punchbowl greens. 


Many here have argued the setting and backdrops don’t matter that much.  As you say, there will always be debate about how much they should matter.  My feeling is “more than we think”. 
Mark

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2019, 09:19:10 AM »
It isn’t easy to do but I try to envisage any golf course I’m playing as having a 100 foot high surrounding wall and I can’t see over or around it so my thoughts on the course focus on the quality of the golf, just the golf, the architecture, the construction etc. Now I’m never totally successful in doing this, and I do admire the skill of architects who route things to maximise the attractiveness of the surroundings, but I still attempt my 100ft game in order to try to objectively evaluate the quality of the golf, not the outside factors.

This is one of the reasons why I’ve always been a huge fan of Carnoustie, because of its setting. The setting!? Yip, the setting. Pretty and scenic with wonderful vistas in all directions it isn’t. It’s wysywig golf, pure golf, tough golf, not flash, not photogenic. And it used to be even less attractive when the old clubhouse was there. Grey and dark and forbidding. High quality golf though, high, high quality, tough and challenging and demanding. If there were a rating of best courses with the least attractive backdrop I imagine it would probably be towards or even at the top of the list.

As to the importance of the background, in these days of quick snap and send digital photos and drones and social media and marketing and the like I suspect the backdrop is getting more and more important both architecturally and maintenance wise.

Atb



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2019, 09:34:03 AM »
Well, duh.  Just look at the rankings and tell me the setting doesn't matter a lot to the people who rate courses.  I doubt the average golfer is much less affected; only the tournament player really doesn't care what the hole looks like.


The 'backdrop' is a bit more specific as it is about one hole at a time, and depends on exactly where that hole was placed on the ground and what it can see - which are, indeed, architectural decisions.  If the background for your par-3 is so bad, did you consider moving the tee 30 degrees left or right and reorienting the green accordingly, so it would not stare at the Burger King across the street?  (Sometimes, of course, the beautiful elm tree behind the green dies, and then they build a Burger King.)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2019, 09:37:06 AM »
A proper use of a backdrop will make your mind believe that 100 yds is 80. Fazio is a master of the backdrop illusion.

Peter Pallotta

Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2019, 10:08:14 AM »
Mark -
I'm thinking of a par 3 on an old Stanley Thompson course I've played (now) several times. A shortish iron into a relatively tame green, a lovely river bordering the left side (with a strip of 'marshland' in between) and a large rock outcrop on the right side.
The first time I played it I thought it was a marvelous golf hole, one of the best Par 3 I'd ever played.
The second time I played it I thought it a lovely golf hole, with the river peacefully rolling by and the ancient beauty of the Canadian shield.
The third time I played it I found myself thinking that it's a nice Par 3 --  I still appreciate the prettiness, but neither the river nor the rock come into play and it's just a 7-8 iron in to a green that isn't as interesting or challenging as many others on the course.
So I guess my answer is: backdrop is important, but maybe especially/only in the context of instagram and rankings-ratings and the need to make an immediate impact to be considered a success.   

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2019, 10:08:36 AM »



There is a "setting" for a golf course which is more locale based and as Tom says "backdrop" which are the individual holes and directional decisions an architect makes. 


We can say "backdrop" does not matter but what of the #16 hole "short" at Sleepy Hollow which combines an appealing backdrop while also traversing a very difficult part of the property.  Shouldn't Macdonald get "credit" for this? 


And perhaps Fazio was trying for an optical illusion with the high voltage tower and power lines behind # 3 at Hudson National but I am a little sick of hearing what a great hole it would be if the wires did not exist.  The wires, and including them on the journey (very difficult property) were part of the choices Fazio made. 


Would also offer that Hudson National has a very unique and inspiring "setting" yet I am hard pressed to come up with an individual hole (unless you take out a drone, or turn your head 120 degrees as you walk up a fairway) that has a unique "backdrop"



Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2019, 10:28:33 AM »
As a golfer I am a sucker for a great experience, which includes the scenery as much as some want to sterilize a course from its surroundings. I don't take the scenery out of it, nor do I want to. I loved seeing hole #7 at NSWGC as I crested over the hill on #6 and walking closer towards it with anticipation.  I had my head on a swivel at Pebble on 18 most of the way.  I got whiplash at Cape Wickham several times and really respect what Mike DeVries accomplished there particularly 17/18. I also enjoyed the expanse of Ballyneal's endless sand hills rolling in the horizon.

Now take it a step further and I tag some major championship courses with iconic moments in golf and DO add a halo effect for them as a result. The spot where Watson hit his 8 iron over the green at Turnberry and the spot he putted from over the green, a bolt of lightening went through me to walk in his footsteps. Almost driving 18 at TOC and ending up in a similar spot as Jack Nicklaus playing his final hole in 2005. I birdied 18 at Riviera with the iconic clubhouse staring me in the face on my uphill 5 iron to the back of the green.  I remember my swing thought being take this off that arch of the beautiful clubhouse. I through a ball down from 173 yards on the 18th hole at Winged Foot.  While looking at the shot thinking man I could have done better than Monty here.  I actually hit a 7 iron as he did and hit the front left of the green under tremendous self induced pressure (ha).

I give extra credit to iconic courses that hosted memorable moments, because it is part of golf's history that is real and I enjoy it so I rate it higher as I enjoy the experience more. It doesn't go from a 5 to a 10 but at least a point or two perhaps. 
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

David Wuthrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2019, 10:58:25 AM »
I have to agree with Tom.  Too many people consider the "backdrop". 
I just want a great hole, could care less what is around it.

Bob Montle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2019, 11:27:54 AM »
#18's at TOC or N.Berwick

Imagine them with Burger Kings.

Kind of makes you want to barf, doesn't it?
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2019, 11:42:11 AM »
#18's at TOC or N.Berwick

Imagine them with Burger Kings.

Kind of makes you want to barf, doesn't it?
Bass Rock or Burger King..... they both start with B.  Although it "shouldn't matter" what the surroundings are unless it is a McDonald's perhaps that doesn't serve all day breakfast.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Anthony Gholz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2019, 11:54:08 AM »
Tom:  Didn't you once say that an ocean added a point to a course's rating?  Or was that just a review of the panelists' numbers?  Anthony

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2019, 12:02:52 PM »
Tom:  Didn't you once say that an ocean added a point to a course's rating?  Or was that just a review of the panelists' numbers?  Anthony


That was just an observation of how people actually voted.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2019, 12:07:53 PM »
Two stories about backdrop to follow.

Royal St. George's, Sandwich.  When I first visited here in 1982, I loved the course and thought it was the best links in England, but I could not help but be turned off a bit by the backdrop of the Richborough Power Station at the far end of the links.  I thought it was a nuclear plant, because of the familiar cooling towers, though in fact it burned coal when it was built, and later oil.

I always wondered if the presence of those cooling towers had an impact on the course's place in the top 100, or, indeed, the decision to drop it from the Open rota [which is always attributed to a combination of blind shots and low scores].

The plant was closed in 1996, and then in 2012 the cooling towers were demolished.  Somehow I expect that this development will cause the course to slowly rise in future rankings.  But we can all agree that it has absolutely zero to do with the quality of the golf course, right?  Right??

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2019, 12:08:55 PM »
One of the reasons I don’t like Pasatiempo is the lack of respect it’s neighbors hold for the course. Sure I constructed a net to protect visitors to my home in Indiana from stray golf shots but at least I took some pride in its construction. I wouldn’t piss on the properties at Pasa despite the signs begging me not to. The best in the world is not a 120 deg visual experience. Give me 360 please.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2019, 12:11:23 PM »
I want to spin in circles like a Dead Head on acid and love every second.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2019, 12:31:05 PM »
Story two:  Rock Creek Cattle Company.


The person who had the biggest impact on my view of backdrops in recent years is Tom Devlin, a member of Rock Creek, who's a good friend of my client Bill Foley.  Tom was also the developer of Flint Hills National in Wichita, a Tom Fazio course.


The ranch that Bill Foley bought included 80,000 acres, and it took several visits for me to decide what part of the site to use for the golf, even before I started trying to fit holes there.  It was a long process and we went through a lot of options.


Early on, I had identified the site where the course is today as a good possibility, but when I first went to see it, I was turned off by the presence of a power line about a mile below the course, hanging over the valley at the bottom end.  It was well away from any potential golf holes, but I could just hear someone saying, "You had 80,000 acres to work with, and you finished right on a view of a power line??" 


So I looked at just about every other possibility we could.  But a lot of the site is just too steep, and that part of the site had beautiful contours for golf.  So, I went back to it, but I tried to avoid the power lines as backdrop . . . after the 14th hole, I doubled back to the right, and had the last two holes playing more east-west, as opposed to the main north-south orientation of the course.


At that point, Mr. Foley invited Tom Devlin up to walk the proposed routing, and Tom asked why I hadn't gone into the beautiful valley alongside the creek, where today's finishing holes are.  I recounted my logic to him, and he said that the power lines might be noticed by the first-time visitor, but a member of the club would never be bothered by them after that.  So why would I let my choice of golf holes be dictated by the small subset of people who were so stupid as to let a power line a mile away ruin their day's golf?


I agreed with his logic -- and importantly, Mr. Foley agreed, so I had a clear mandate from the client not to let those particular power lines make me shy away from the bottom end of the valley.  It did not take long from there to come up with the routing for the 15th-18th holes at Rock Creek.


I have wondered occasionally if part of the reason the course had not made the rankings until this year was not just that it lacked an ocean view [compared to my four or five most highly-ranked courses], but whether the distant power line had affected the votes of a couple of panelists.  But, as Tom Devlin would say, I shouldn't waste a minute thinking about those people.  What matters to the one-and-done visiting panelist is NOT as important as what matters to the people who actually pay to play the course . . . which means it's maybe a different equation for a private club than it might be for a destination resort.


When I tell people the more I've been in the business, the less the rankings mean to me, this is the kind of thing that makes me feel that way.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2019, 12:40:40 PM »
And while the backdrop for the finish at Dismal Red is spectacular the bugs are not. Adam Clayman gave us fair warning.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2019, 12:49:34 PM »
And while the backdrop for the finish at Dismal Red is spectacular the bugs are not. Adam Clayman gave us fair warning.


How many months of the year is that true?


I ask because I was there a fair amount to get the course built, and never had much problem with the bugs.  [And bugs usually make a bee line for me!]  There was one time they were annoying, but still no worse than the flies are in Melbourne at this time of year.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2019, 12:50:36 PM »
Tom,

Interesting back story.

I for one am glad you took that direction because that 14-16 hole stretch is nothing short of epic/top notch in my book.  3 par 4s in a row in the same proximity, but all so unique and different from each other and all so fun to play.

P.S.  I did notice the power lines but didn't give it an extra thought as they weren't really close.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2019, 12:56:31 PM »
And while the backdrop for the finish at Dismal Red is spectacular the bugs are not. Adam Clayman gave us fair warning.


How many months of the year is that true?


I ask because I was there a fair amount to get the course built, and never had much problem with the bugs.  [And bugs usually make a bee line for me!]  There was one time they were annoying, but still no worse than the flies are in Melbourne at this time of year.


I’m glad Melbourne has its own issues.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2019, 01:59:15 PM »
Mark Parsinen was a big believer in backdrops. Many of the holes at Castle Stuart are routed so that various landmarks up & down the Moray Firth sit in the distance behind the greens.

Comments from the CS website:

Infinity Greens – putting greens that run off into the firth and/or other landmarks around the golf course, giving you a sense of place and enhancing the visual experience.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2019, 02:11:25 PM »
One point I very much agree with is that golfers tend to not focus as much on the backdrops the more they play the golf course.  They tend to take them for granted or just forget about them.  Tom you might remember at Cherry Hills, though we took many down before you got there, silly Cottonwoods had been planted that blocked many of the backdrops and vistas of the mountains that Flynn had purposely designed the routing of several of his holes to accentuate.  Members didn’t realize those original backdrops/views were there till they came down.


On the par three I was talking about I totally agree with Tom about reorienting the green and/or moving the tee but as he knows, sometimes on a renovation that is not an option.  You just build the best hole you can and live with it. 


I remember Pete Dye once told me that sometimes when you “try to hide something you can actually bring more attention to it”.  He tended to just live with the issue such as power lines or an ugly offsite structure instead of trying to hide it. 


At The Preserve at Oak Meadows, working with Greg Martin, we had the luxury of changing the routing of the holes in the redesign and we did just that with the one hole on the front that butted up directly in front of an ugly offsite building.  No matter how good the hole would have been if we redesigned it in place, that structure would have hindered the aesthetic.  Yes golfers who play there every day would have eventually forgotten it was even there but we would have still seen it behind that greensite every time we returned to the course. 


As I said earlier, until you build your own hole and realize the impact of a poor backdrop (e.g. the hesitation to hang a lithograph of the hole behind your desk) I didn’t think it would concern me as much.  And by the way it is not a Burger King behind the par three we just renovated, just some less attractive buildings offsite.   

Bernie Bell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How important is the backdrop?
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2019, 02:15:03 PM »
Four Streams (Smyers) starts with a blind tee shot par 5 where two giant transmission towers in the backdrop are guides.  There are also some towers inside the course at Old Memorial (Smyers).  Never detracted from my experience.