[Derek_Duncan]

The masses do not get past the front gate at Deepdale or Pine Tree.

Can the same not be said of Fishers Island or Bel-Air or National or Mountain Lake or...

[Sean_A]

If you went back to 1982 and dropped someone on an average Donald Ross course, you probably would think he was that great of an architect either.

1982 is the heyday of my golf.  I can say without question that I felt the Ross courses of my area were much superior to the post war efforts. And this was despite the awful almost universal wet presentation of classic courses.  While I am hesitant to agree with the dark ages moniker, I have no doubt that the top half of the courses before the war were far better than then top half of the 1950-1990 decades. I am not sure anyone is arguing this point, but I am not sure what the argument is. 


Happy Hockey

[Luke Sutton]

Tom,


Do you think you could do something great (top200?) with the current Dye Austin Country Club?


The 2nd course that was ACC (currently Riverside Golf Course) is a Press and Perry Maxwell with tons of potential but has been butchered by the community college that owns it. I think it could be really really good if restored. I’m not 100% sure but I don’t think any buildings have been built on the actual course (yet). They did redesign the first few holes to accommodate a parking lot for the college. For some reason Ben has focused on Muni instead of Riverside.

[Derek_Duncan]

If you went back to 1982 and dropped someone on an average Donald Ross course, you probably would think he was that great of an architect either.

1982 is the heyday of my golf.  I can say without question that I felt the Ross courses of my area were much superior to the post war efforts. And this was despite the awful almost universal wet presentation of classic courses.  While I am hesitant to agree with the dark ages moniker, I have no doubt that the top half of the courses before the war were far better than then top half of the 1950-1990 decades. I am not sure anyone is arguing this point, but I am not sure what the argument is. 


Happy Hockey

Sean,


I understand completely your sentiments and observations. Very astute of you even as a young, green architectural critic. My point is more that the detail and full architectural complexity of Ross's (or any other designer's) courses were obscured if not obliterated prior to the age of restoration. And I wonder if there's an analogy to courses built in the 50s and 60s.

[Sean_A]

Derek

As Tom mentioned, the difference was telling in the greens. Many of the same presentation issues plagued modern and classic courses alike. Michigan was a hot spot for many post war courses of some repute. And to be fair, a lot of these courses are fine, if a bit overly reliant on carts. But very few have had lasting power in terms of competing with the classic courses mainly found around Detroit. That said I really like post war Leslie Park by L Packard (late 60s), mucked with hit and miss changes by A Hills.

Happy Hockey

[Jeff Schley]

Tom,


Do you think you could do something great (top200?) with the current Dye Austin Country Club?


The 2nd course that was ACC (currently Riverside Golf Course) is a Press and Perry Maxwell with tons of potential but has been butchered by the community college that owns it. I think it could be really really good if restored. I’m not 100% sure but I don’t think any buildings have been built on the actual course (yet). They did redesign the first few holes to accommodate a parking lot for the college. For some reason Ben has focused on Muni instead of Riverside.

I think I would have kept looking and discovered what C&C did at Austin Golf Club, which is a great piece of Texas land.  Much flatter and slightly rolling, bunkering is strategic with green slopes being a defense. I don't think there were many, if any blind shots as well.  ACC is like a circus of elevation changes and although done well given the land, it is just too gimmicky for my taste.

[Derek_Duncan]

If pressed to the fire I would probably agree with Tom that the courses of the 50s, 60s and 70s lack the detail and little intricacies that make courses from the 10s and 20s so interesting. Considering the mass of courses that were built, they just don't seem to be there.


But I often wonder if we ever get a true look at what the post-War courses really were. I'm guessing most have evolved dramatically or been renovated over the course of the 50-70 years since they opened. We think of Firestone and Bellerive, to take two examples, as being narrow, treelined and dull, but they weren't designed that way originally. Neither had very many trees at all, and we know how grass lines tend to shrink until forcefully pushed back (and this is not to mention these courses and others have undergone heavy remodeling).


One of the reasons those classic courses you mention have recently debuted on top 100 lists is because their architectural features were rediscovered and brought back to life. We really don't know for certain what kind of features or details might be missing from some of the prominent (and maybe not prominent) post-War courses because they likely haven't been preserved or have been paved over. I'm not certain we're judging them in full context.


If you went back to 1982 and dropped someone on an average Donald Ross course, you probably would think he was that great of an architect either.

Derek,
It was actually one of your podcast episodes that made me start thinking about this subject. Design is always so cyclical, as it has been pointed out here recently the design work of the 40's, 50's, and 60's were in direct response away from some of the golden age designs. Now today where we hold the golden age courses in such high esteem, its not surprising that the post war courses are viewed so poorly. But these were the courses of the great golf boom across the US, these were the courses that the majority of players learned the game and grew up on. It would not be surprising that soon enough the nostalgic notion of the time will come back into view and greater interest will be placed upon these forgotten properties. Like art and design in virtually any arena, It is not a stretch to think that one day the popular view will be in favor of postwar courses.

We discuss all the time of design intent when it comes to golden age courses and if designers were really designing for the how the course would naturally evolve. For the postwar courses, the same questions can be presented. But at the same time we have much better documentation as to their original presentation. If we feel that a course like Firestone is a fairly strong routing but has been to narrowed with trees, we have the ability to assess the course's presentation from day one and successfully return it back into that condition.

Eventually all of the golden era courses will either be restored or redesigned. All of the owners of these post war courses won't want to feel that their properties are without merit and they will look for those in the industry that can best restore the glory of their designs. Soon enough there will be architects branding themselves as Dick Wilson or RTJ specialist that can take a course Deepdale or Pine Tree and rediscover them for the masses.

Ben,


It would indeed seem like we should enter a period where Wilson and RTJ courses are "restored" in the same manner as Ross, Raynor and the like have been over the last 25 years. In many regards it's just numbers: most of the worthy Golden Age courses have already been touched up and the really good ones all currently have established relationships with architects who aren't in any hurry to retire from them.


Architects looking for opportunities, who aren't already fully booked, will have to take up other types of projects, namely mid-century designs. We're already starting to see this, or at least we're talking about it more.


The question is, will these projects be strip-down remodels or will the intent of the clubs be to preserve the architectural integrity of the original design. For the latter to happen, we're going to need a renaissance of appreciation beyond RTJ and Wilson. Somehow Harris, Packard, the Gordons, Jim Harrison et al are going to have to be "discovered" the same way Langford, Stiles and Van Kleek, Park Jr. and other Golden Age architects have been rediscovered.

[Sean_A]

Maybe you are right Derek. I certainly think of work by Packard as highly competent, safe, not difficult to maintain, no frills, all out there in front of you design. Which courses are worth the effort to re-establish? I recall when Leslie Park was seriously altered by the city that I couldn't figure out what the goals were. The course was popular and affordable. It always seemed to me that it was wasted money to make the changes especially as the overall quality of the course wasn't improved. That said, I am not convinced money should be spent to reinstate the Packard design. It was good, but not special.

Which courses of the archies you mentioned should be restored?

Personally, in Ann Arbor M, where Leslie Park is, I would much rather see the Bendelow designed Huron Hills get serious attention.

Happy Hockey

[Derek_Duncan]

Sean,


I'm not familiar with enough mid-Century courses from these types of architects to recommend specific ones worthy of restoring. As is the case with most architects, each probably had a few showcase designs that might be interesting enough or good enough to explore more deeply. If for no other reason than the historical record, I'd like to see some of this catalogue preserved.


But it's hard to advocate restoration of many post-War courses without firsthand knowledge of what lies beneath the surface. In reality, you might get a better or more engaging product by turning them over to a current architect for a major creative overhaul. But then we'd be doing exactly what Cornish and RTJ and their colleagues were doing to Golden Age courses.


At the end of the day we're making artistic judgments in direction or another.

[Tom_Doak]

The masses do not get past the front gate at Deepdale or Pine Tree.

Can the same not be said of Fishers Island or Bel-Air or National or Mountain Lake or...

Yes, but I did not make them out to be examples that should be restored "for the masses", as Ben H. did in his post:

Soon enough there will be architects branding themselves as Dick Wilson or RTJ specialist that can take a course Deepdale or Pine Tree and rediscover them for the masses.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I'm not familiar with enough mid-Century courses from these types of architects to recommend specific ones worthy of restoring. As is the case with most architects, each probably had a few showcase designs that might be interesting enough or good enough to explore more deeply. If for no other reason than the historical record, I'd like to see some of this catalogue preserved.

But it's hard to advocate restoration of many post-War courses without firsthand knowledge of what lies beneath the surface. In reality, you might get a better or more engaging product by turning them over to a current architect for a major creative overhaul. But then we'd be doing exactly what Cornish and RTJ and their colleagues were doing to Golden Age courses.

At the end of the day we're making artistic judgments in direction or another.

I am in the same boat as you.  I am simply unaware of great, worthy to restore (assuming they have been altered) courses by the "second tier" archies of the 50s-80s period. I am sure at least a few must exist somewhere, but I think the general ethos, choice of land and purpose of the period may make these rare exceptions. 


Happy Hockey

[Ben Hollerbach]

If you really want to piss me off, just imply that I am saying what I'm saying for monetary gain.  I've never been in consulting work for the money, and I'm not signing up any more consulting clients in future.  Money has nothing to do with my argument.

Tom,
 I was saying the opposite.  Clients with money to spend right now want to hear that classic courses are the best.  I was saying that you, and the posters on this site, won't just parrot this opinion and are fully capable of judging a course on its architectural merits, regardless of the architect or the year it was made.  You won't evaluate a course with a bias just due to its age.  ~10,000 courses were built during this period, even if 99% of them are bad, that leaves 100 courses worth our time. Let's find the best ones and discuss them.

The masses do not get past the front gate at Deepdale or Pine Tree.

Can the same not be said of Fishers Island or Bel-Air or National or Mountain Lake or...

Yes, but I did not make them out to be examples that should be restored "for the masses", as Ben H. did in his post:

Soon enough there will be architects branding themselves as Dick Wilson or RTJ specialist that can take a course Deepdale or Pine Tree and rediscover them for the masses.

A course like Fisher's Island is a perfect course for what I was referring to. This was a property that 30 years was off pretty much everyone's radar. It's not only that the general public had never heard of it, even those in the know were often unaware of its greatness. But over the last 3 decades the recognition of the course has grown exponentially. Its not that Fisher's all of a sudden opened up their tee sheet to the masses, getting access to the course today is probably harder than it was 30 years ago. But people started to talk about the course, publications began writing about the course, and people started discussing the architectural merits of the course more and more. For the Average Joe golfer, Fisher's Island was something brand new. Within the golfing world it had been rediscovered. People still can't get access to the property, but they still know the course.

I can't tell you the last time I've seen anything written about a course like Deepdale that was not a post on this website. Even then it's not a course that is discussed all that often. I believe that courses like Deepdale and Pine Tree deserve more recognition and study than they currently receive. Excellent examples that help to define the stylistic and design choices of an era should be celebrated. Study of their merits should be publicized, especially when the general public will never get to experience them first hand.

[Ben Hollerbach]

I went through the recommendations on this thread and outside evaluations to come up with the following lists. Which coursed should be moved/replaced? Which courses have been recently restored or who's current designs are far departures from the original? Which courses would present the opportunity for great restoration candidates?

1940's

• Peachtree Golf Club (1948)
• The Dunes Golf & Beach Club (1949)
• La Paz Golf Club (1949)
• Blue Lakes Country Club (1949)
• Raleigh Country Club (1948)
• - 10. ?

1950's

• Deepdale Golf Club (1956)
• Meadow Brook Club (1955)
• NCR Country Club - South (1954)
• Royal Montreal Golf Club - Blue (1959)
• Tryall Club (1958)
• Point O'Woods Golf & Country Club (1958)
• TPC Dorado Beach (1958)
• Lyford Cay Club (1959)
• Tanglewood Park - Championship (1958)
• Saucon Valley Country Club - Grace (1953)

1960's

• The Golf Club (1967)
• Harbour Town Golf Links (1969)
• Desert Forest Golf Club (1962)
• Crooked Stick Golf Club (1964)
• Spyglass Hill Golf Course (1966)
• Grandfather Golf & Country Club (1967)
• Club El Rincón de Cajicá (1963)
• Hazeltine National Golf Club (1965)
• Mauna Kea Golf Course (1965)
• Bidermann Golf Club (1965)

1970's

• Casa de Campo - Teeth of the Dog (1971)
• Muirfield Village Golf Club (1974)
• Waterville Golf Links (1973)
• Butler National Golf Club (1973)
• The National Golf Club of Canada (1976)
• Jupiter Hills Club - Hills (1970)
• Glen Abbey Golf Club - (1974)
• Oak Tree National (1976)
• Innisbrook - Copperhead (1970)
• Shoal Creek Golf Club (1976)

1980's

• TPC Sawgrass (1980)
• Shadow Creek Golf Course (1989)
• Wade Hamptons Golf Club (1988)
• John's Island Club - West (1988)
• Long Cove Golf Club (1982)
• The Honors Course (1983)
• Blackwolf Run - River (1986)
• Forest Highlands Golf Club (1986)
• Black Diamond Ranch - Quarry (1988)
• Wolf Run Golf Course (1989)

[Enno Gerdes]

Noordwijkse in the Netherlands was built in the late 60’s. I haven’t seen enough courses to judge if it’s “great” or not, but it’s certainly at least pretty good.

[Tom_Doak]

Some comments below in red.

1940's

• Peachtree Golf Club (1948) - very well preserved
• The Dunes Golf & Beach Club (1949)  - Rees Jones has done a couple of iterations of changes
• La Paz Golf Club (1949)  - could be much improved with better greens/bunkers, but no $$ in La Paz
• Blue Lakes Country Club (1949)
• Raleigh Country Club (1948)  - in line for major restoration / remodel
• - 10. ?

1950's

• Deepdale Golf Club (1956)  - the interesting question is how to make their 5-6% slopes on greens work, but still be scary
• Meadow Brook Club (1955)
• NCR Country Club - South (1954)
• Royal Montreal Golf Club - Blue (1959)  - Rees changed a Dick Wilson design here, and at Lyford Cay, too
• Tryall Club (1958)
• Point O'Woods Golf & Country Club (1958)
• TPC Dorado Beach (1958)  - redone about ten years ago
• Lyford Cay Club (1959)
• Tanglewood Park - Championship (1958)
• Saucon Valley Country Club - Grace (1953)

1960's

• The Golf Club (1967)  - the biggest question is, who will look after Mr. Dye's courses once he is gone?  Will they look to restore his original designs, or preserve and extend his changes?
• Harbour Town Golf Links (1969)
• Desert Forest Golf Club (1962)  - done, not without some controversy
• Crooked Stick Golf Club (1964)
• Spyglass Hill Golf Course (1966)
• Grandfather Golf & Country Club (1967)
• Club El Rincón de Cajicá (1963) 
• Hazeltine National Golf Club (1965)  -  Rees, as you'd expect, has the inside track on most of his dad's courses
• Mauna Kea Golf Course (1965)  - ditto
• Bidermann Golf Club (1965)  - some work done by Gil, I think

1970's

• Casa de Campo - Teeth of the Dog (1971)  - the Dye, Nicklaus, and Fazio families still wield influence on most of these, and want to be the ones who "update" them.  Hard to see anyone else stepping over them, honestly.
• Muirfield Village Golf Club (1974)
• Waterville Golf Links (1973)
• Butler National Golf Club (1973)
• The National Golf Club of Canada (1976)
• Jupiter Hills Club - Hills (1970)
• Glen Abbey Golf Club - (1974)
• Oak Tree National (1976)
• Innisbrook - Copperhead (1970)
• Shoal Creek Golf Club (1976)

1980's

• TPC Sawgrass (1980)
• Shadow Creek Golf Course (1989)
• Wade Hamptons Golf Club (1988)
• John's Island Club - West (1988)
• Long Cove Golf Club (1982)
• The Honors Course (1983)
• Blackwolf Run - River (1986)
• Forest Highlands Golf Club (1986)
• Black Diamond Ranch - Quarry (1988)
• Wolf Run Golf Course (1989)  - already gone, isn't it?

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