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Jeff Schley

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Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« on: November 12, 2019, 12:09:08 PM »
Not much commentary at all, but here is their list:
1. Sleepy Hollow - Hanse
2. Seminole - C&C
3. Turnberry - Ebert
4. Royal Portrush - Mackenzie/Ebert
5. Yangtze Dunes - OCCM
6. Cedar Rapids CC - Prichard
7. Winged Foot West - Hanse
8. Pinehurst 4 - Hanse
9. Bel-Air - Doak

Four best on deck
Baltursol lower

Congressional

Muirfield Village

Oakland Hills

Many of these have been discussed and although not public knowledge would be interesting to put $ figures next to them.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

JC Jones

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Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2019, 01:22:24 PM »
What is interesting is the spectrum of "renovations" here ranging from essentially a brand new golf course to some bunker work.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

John Blain

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Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2019, 02:14:09 PM »
Oak Hill East should be included in the "on deck". Between what I have seen in person and the pictures Andrew Green has posted on Twitter it looks fantastic..

Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2019, 02:37:54 PM »
Look at little Cedar Rapids besting Winged Foot and Pinehurst #4! Congrats Vaughn.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2019, 03:39:01 PM »
I played both Winged Foot courses just after the East course renovation was complete.  Certainly the West is a great championship venue but for me the East was a blast and a course I would love to play over and over.  For those who have played both over a longer period of time is there anyone out there that can give an opinion of which renovation was the greater accomplishment - not which course is better but which renovation was more significant. 

Michael Wolf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2019, 06:10:00 PM »
Was the list supposed to be based on the end result, or the level of improvement after vs before?

[/size]Places farther down most lists like Shoal Creek or Hirono or Pinehurst 4 would be at the top if it was "most improved"[size=78%]

[/size]I think? it's still been only 5 years since Sweetens reopened as well. That's gotta be among the all timers before vs after.[size=78%]

John_Cullum

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Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2019, 04:45:30 AM »
They couldn't find a 10th?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2019, 05:59:07 AM »
I think I'd include Philly Cricket. I think it is in that time frame.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2019, 12:45:05 PM »
It's pretty ridiculous to be making up your mind about the best renovation for two years from now - if you are actually judging the wuality of the work and not just fawning over one architect or another.


Also, agree that this list is comparing apples and oranges . . . and chocolate cake.



I have not seen Moraine but it seems like the work done there was more significant than, say, Winged Foot.  How much higher in the rankings are courses like Winged Foot and Seminole really going to move up?  But I suppose the raters (and editors) care more about being on Seminole's good side.

Steve Lapper

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Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2019, 03:32:12 PM »
I played both Winged Foot courses just after the East course renovation was complete.  Certainly the West is a great championship venue but for me the East was a blast and a course I would love to play over and over.  For those who have played both over a longer period of time is there anyone out there that can give an opinion of which renovation was the greater accomplishment - not which course is better but which renovation was more significant.


I think only Neil Regan could give the most accurate answer, but I suspect he's too smart to play that card!


Both renovations accomplished the tasks of significantly revealing and enhancing AW Tillinghast's architectual genius. Rarely have any great, or even very good, courses evolved from mostly flat properties. Both the East and West have done so here.


Gil Hanse's work, especially on and around the greens, is undeniably of the highest quality and reflects critical adherence to historic forms and features.


 I know it doesn't answer your question clearly, but after growing up on those grounds and playing both many, many times, I'd say both courses and their respective renovations were equally positive accomplishments.
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

John Emerson

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Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2019, 09:40:34 AM »
How did moraine not make this list?!?
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2019, 01:10:23 PM »
Don't you mean Merion?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff Schley

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Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2019, 01:45:08 PM »
Don't you mean Merion?
I was wondering when someone was going to bring that up. ;D   Certainly should have been mentioned.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff Schley

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Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2019, 01:51:12 PM »
How about this one? Bonus points for identifying whose sweet finish that is.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kalen Braley

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Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2019, 02:04:02 PM »
Is that Tom D?  And gasp a top shot bunker?  ;D

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2019, 02:09:14 PM »
Is that Tom D?  And gasp a top shot bunker?  ;D


That's my ceremonial first tee shot upon the reopening of the course. [Ribbon that had just been cut still in view.]


I was very afraid of duffing my first tee shot into the camel bunker, because they were going to fire off the club's cannon (!!) as soon as I made contact, and I hate loud noises.  But if you actually top it, there is water between the tee and the bunker, so the camel doesn't see too much play.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2019, 02:13:25 PM »
Sounds like you successfully avoided embarrassment there Tom, nice work.

P.S.  My first glance at that pic made me think of Elkington, so not a bad follow thru at all!  ;)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2019, 02:20:09 PM »
This topic still annoys me because there is no consensus on what they are trying to measure.


GOLF DIGEST just dropped their rankings of "best new renovations" precisely because they couldn't figure out what they were rating.  They had just been using the final rating score for each course that had done enough work to be considered a "renovation", which is a stupid way of doing it IMO - but certainly, if you were doing that, then Winged Foot would be higher on this list along with Seminole and Portrush and Turnberry.



If the rankings are supposed to be about "improvement", then I will stand by my argument above that some of the famous courses just don't have that much room to improve, and should not make this list.  But the famous courses would have been peeved . . . even the Winged Foots of the world want validation for their sacrifice of closing the course and changing things around.


The sad thing was that GOLF DIGEST had plenty of data of old scores to go by, so they could easily have done rankings based on the Delta between the score before renovation and afterwards, but they didn't want to do it that way.  They said it didn't make sense to compare the before-v-after scores because they came from different voters.  As if that were not the same flaw in the whole rankings exercise generally!

Adam Clayman

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Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2019, 01:09:20 PM »
 Wow, quite the picture.


 

« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 01:21:26 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Paul Rudovsky

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Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2019, 04:18:38 PM »
I played both Winged Foot courses just after the East course renovation was complete.  Certainly the West is a great championship venue but for me the East was a blast and a course I would love to play over and over.  For those who have played both over a longer period of time is there anyone out there that can give an opinion of which renovation was the greater accomplishment - not which course is better but which renovation was more significant.


IMO East.  In the 70's I was across the street at Quaker.  Had a good friend at WF and we always played West.  Once asked him about playing East and his reply was "East if for wives and kids".  East now is so so much fun and was originally supposed to host the '29 Open.  But heavy rain just prior caused USGA to move event to West. 


West renovation also great...but the change I think was greater on East. 

Neil Regan

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Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2019, 07:41:11 PM »
East ... was originally supposed to host the '29 Open.  But heavy rain just prior caused USGA to move event to West. 




Paul,


 A correction. This story is often told but is not true. It will probably be repeated this year too. The West Course was always the course for the 1929 Open.


 But the East Course could certainly have hosted the 1929 Open, and in fact has hosted the US Senior Open, the Women’s Open, the Amateur, and the Four-Ball. Compared to the West, it is, IMO, significantly less difficult tee-to-green, but equal the rest of the way.
Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

V_Halyard

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Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2019, 09:09:31 PM »
Look at little Cedar Rapids besting Winged Foot and Pinehurst #4! Congrats Vaughn.
Ha I know Right?
Thanks it's quite surprisingly tasty.
Laughing at one comment: "How did Cedar Rapids get on there?"
Asked Them "have you seen or played it or know about the reno?"
Them: "well, no... "
Me: "Well, I guess I know why you don't have a clue how CRCC got there."
We've had a hell of a year!
As I remind everybody: "At CRCC, We all work for Tom Feller."
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2019, 09:12:47 PM »
It's pretty ridiculous to be making up your mind about the best renovation for two years from now - if you are actually judging the wuality of the work and not just fawning over one architect or another.


Also, agree that this list is comparing apples and oranges . . . and chocolate cake.



I have not seen Moraine but it seems like the work done there was more significant than, say, Winged Foot.  How much higher in the rankings are courses like Winged Foot and Seminole really going to move up?  But I suppose the raters (and editors) care more about being on Seminole's good side.
ha Does Seminole even care?

"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2019, 09:38:30 PM »
ha Does Seminole even care?


More than you'd think.  (Ask your pro.)  You should have been around years ago when Shadow Creek jumped into the GOLF DIGEST top ten.  The president of Seminole penned a heartfelt letter to the editor about how places like that didn't belong in elite company, and cc'd everyone he thought was important in the golf business.  He might not have gotten so worked up over a course in Iowa, though.

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Magazine's top 9 best course renovations of last 5 years
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2019, 05:40:23 AM »
Moved
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 05:57:22 AM by V_Halyard »
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.