[Matt_Ward]

Location dictates price ... the Vegas and Scottsdale markets still keep cranking out courses with $100+ green fees in season. On the flip side you have the "fast food" capital of the golf world -- Myrtle Beach (aka Grand Strand) and plenty of courses were misguided in thinking they could all charge big time bucks for 18 holes. Unfortunately, a good number of the 100+ courses in the area will soon be playing a golf version of musical chairs and for some the future is indeed a bleak one.

As an FYI -- the State of NJ is the 8th most expensive place to play golf according to the NGF. Part of the issue is the fact that NJ's per capita income is either 1st or second with Connecticut. As a result of the bad economy there's been a slight movement to brand fees to different times of the day and season to keep players playing. The bigger issue is when courses offer steep discounts because you begin to condition the golfer to that level of fees. When good times do come the player(s) will often balk at being charged a higher amount.

In any event the "hot" areas of the country will not have the kind of pressure to make the botton line as those locations that are in the "short season" spots (i.e. Upper Michigan, the upper Midwest, New England, etc, etc).

In getting feedback from Jersey golfers I often hear that people are certainly concerned about price but the real complaint comes with the amount of time it takes to play 18 holes. Many people are opting for other alternatives (going to the driving ranges) because they can't commit several hours away from business / family, etc, etc.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Adam,
Not respecting you when you are on vacation is not the purpose of sliding fees, especially at a muni. They borrowed from their constituents and the break on fees is in direct response to their constituents approving the project. The residents are in fact part "owners" and entitled to monetary considerations. The municipality has built the course for its residents first and outside play second. Your tax money had nothing to do with building the course, theirs did.

I'm not suggesting you like it, just understand why they do it and it doesn't seem so "dis-respectful".

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
What about the 26 courses within 25 miles or less and the 84 courses within 50 miles or less of Chicago that charge $50 or less to play?

[A_Clay_Man]

Chicago has to be the best example for non-affordable worst value, anywhere. The quality of the courses and the game thats accepted as 'normal' is far a field from anything desireable or justifying these high end prices.

On my recent return visit, I was shocked at what Big Run was getting for a weekday green fee. Then I saw TiM Nugent;s crew out there destroying the marvelous seventh green and I couldn't believe the justification. Yep, lowest common denom.

Combine those old great greens, with a tree removal program and Big Run would be something special, now it's just a poster child for how not to destroy your lay-out.

JimK- As soon as that course is built the residents are never treated or considered owners. But it does bring up a good question on how governmet can compete with theri employers, the people.

[Jeff Goldman]

Jim,

What are some examples?  Aren't they mostly munis in the $40-50 range, with lower fees for residents?  If we're talking Sportsman's, Deerfield, Arboretum (a really big yuck), Glenview Park and the like, they are not worth it.

Adam, isn't Big Run about $65 during the season?  Yikes.  And they keep adding stuff that detracts.  Are they getting rid of the slope on 7?  Great.  Who needs the pond on 2?  It has a lot of hilly ground, and with the old greens, that should have been enough.

Jeff Goldman

[RJ_Daley]

Lou, what I haven't read yet, or missed by reading too fast is what else in the way of profit center does that course have, that you are asking about?  Do they have a good F&B and pro shop sales?  Can they rent out party space?

It seems to me that what Don says is very important in evaluating the point that generates customers coming through your facility.  If you are in a market catering to joe average recreational golfers, they are simply not looking for the price to quality of the design issue.  They are looking for a place to go and feel like they are getting a good price or the lowest price to whack the ball around for a while, and then have some brewski's with their friends.  It is a matter of finding a price to pay for the cost of maintenance and reasonable set aside capital improvements fund divided by the number of rounds you ought to "at least" do.  But, you have to have an operation to take advantage of that nearly break-even point of green fees to course maintenance costs.  If you charge a dollar or two or 5 less than the most likely competitors, in most non-metropolis regions, that ought to do the trick.  Get them coming through then keep them. You can put more effort in F&B and even charge .50 more for a beer etc., and probably more than make that lower gf up, if you have the kind of atmosphere and culture to keep them there at the 19th hole.

One example at my home course, a county owned, rated always in top 3-5 publics in WI.  They built a new clubhouse and leased the F&B to a local restaurantuer.  The green fees went from 24 to 26 weekday res, 36 to 38 non res, and 3 bucks over those numbers for weekends.  But, the restaurantuer came in with an excellent f&b offering in a new lovely clubhouse, AND rather than an old coverted eazy-go with an ice chest for on course beer, he put out two modern golf  course beer, liquor carts, and a stand for brats hotdogs and hamburgers at the turn.  He raised the profit on that aspect of the previous years f&b enormously in the club house, and quadrupled it on the course!  That in my mind is where the rubber meets the road.  The green fees should pay for the maintenance and capital improvement fund, and the profit should come from the f&b and customer friendly service.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Adam,
That's not precisely right. Whereas a resident may not be able to come onto the property and harass the staff ala the self important member, they usually get first crack at the best tee times and in many cases can have a paying non resident guest with them. There are also resident leagues with course priority.  

Chicago may be as you suggest but there are affordable courses within very manageable distances of the city.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,

http://www.golfcourse.com/search/advancedq.cfm?RequestTimeout=1500

Go to advanced search, put in the criteria: chicago, il -  6,000 yds minimum - check box at 50 mis. - less than $50, and finally check off  publicand semi private.

[A.G._Crockett]

Lou,
Would a 3-round pass to be used within a 30-day period, or something along those lines, help at all?  It's done frequently in resort areas with lots of courses, and for the life of me, I can't figure out why it isn't done more in the daily fee business if it is a competitive market.  This might work especially well if the food and beverage service was good.

Also, would an arrangement in which kids play at a reduced price when playing with a paying adult help?

Final promo thought:  Lots of daily fee courses here in Atlanta, where the market is much like Chicago, I think, run coupons in which 4 golfers play for the price of three.

[A_Clay_Man]

Dick makes an excellent point about the overall package and how its best to treat the seperate but equal bottomlines.

JimK- I guess there are so many different ways that it's done we all have diverse experiences. At my old haunt the residents needed to stick to the same rules as anyone trying to get a tee time. They (the city) were paranoid(i think) about some unfairness claim being made. While there was a system in place, to allow the local to have an already completed sheet, for the next week, in place, so that it was first honored, was all the consideration they were given(not much). Each individual still needed to sign-up on the sheet and if it wasn't full the pro would open up the times that were not filled. Plus, having your locals "lead the way" on the course everyday, especially on weekends, is only prudent if you want to have a decent chance for a reasonable pace of play.

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