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Peter Pallotta

Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« on: October 27, 2019, 09:13:25 PM »
And you can keep all the rest.
New analytics, relievers as 'openers', ERA and wins and complete games no longer the key metrics etc etc.
But the World Series features two teams with old-school top-line pitching: great starting pitching.
And for me, give me a couple of Jack Morris bull-dog types, an Andy Pettite, and three reliables like Mark Buehrle and I'll take my chances.
Which is to say: finishing work and strategic choices and clever use of barrancas and short Par 4s and options off the tee etc etc. I've been as much suckered in to these new analytics as anyone. But now I think: give me a great builder of greens -- a complete game, 200+ innings a year type -- and you can keep all the rest.
With a great starting pitching staff, you're playing in late October; without one you can have Mike Trout and you're still out playing golf instead.
With a great green builder, finishing work and short 4s and options and width and dry riverbeds actually mean something; without one, they are just modern day analytics eye candy.
Am I right, or what? In fact, I'm probably just stating the obvious, no?


archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2019, 09:21:46 PM »
 ;)


The best courses start and finish with the best greens

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2019, 09:50:48 PM »
Don't agree. A great set of greens on a lousy routing is still a lousy golf course.
Bethpage Black proves that average greens on a great routing still can add up to something quite special.

With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Peter Pallotta

Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2019, 10:26:27 PM »
Ian,

you know that I know that I should defer to you, but I'm not so sure.

The thing about the great green builder, what does he give me? He makes sure that every single tee shot on every Par 3, and every single approach shot (the funnest shots in golf, what for me makes golf golf) to every Par 4 and Par 5 is interesting/engaging and exhilarating and (potentially) very rewarding or (in retrospect) hugely disappointing:

And all that engagement and exhilaration and feeling of accomplishment or failure is the *other* main thing that makes golf golf. [And that's without even mentioning the fun & challenge of putting itself!]

In that context, the fact that one fairway here might be too narrow, and one bunker there too penal, and a few green to tee walks too long, and even that the architect hasn't 'made the best possible use of the site and its natural features' -- all that kind of pales in comparison. No?

I mean, almost no matter how anemic a batting order is, a great starting pitcher will still keep you in the game, for a lot of innings at least, and may even win it for you!
     
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 12:01:05 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2019, 03:41:10 AM »
On a great landscape for golf, I veer more towards Ian: A great routing and variety of holes, all with great green “sites” (part of routing) is probably the single most important element.


But on a flat site, where there are no features and everything has to be built, a brilliant set of greens might take over that no.1 spot, with the caveat that the site is big and easy for any architect to come up with a routing that isn’t plain ridiculous.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2019, 04:05:42 AM »
I know what Pietro means. A great set of greens can carry a course above its weight class. Beau Desert is a case in point regardless if the experts don't recognize it. Woodhall Spa is an example of the opposite. The mediocre at best greens means that it will always struggle to run with the top pack. There is always the Delamere Forest/Beau Desert comparison. Del has always had more limelight, but its barely average greens makes the course no match for Beau, despite Beau's very dicey presentation. What makes Woking part of the jet set... the greens. Why is Deal one of the top courses in GB&I, the greens. Slap Delamere's or Woodhall's greens on either course and they fade into the likes of good, not special.

The bottom line is you can never go wrong by providing an interesting set of greens. This is what puzzles me re Woodhall.

Happy Hockey
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 04:33:25 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2019, 06:15:27 AM »
 :D ;)


It's not that a course can't be good without great greens, it can't be great. They need to fit the rest of the course and add to the flow and strategy.


As an operator you can get away with the tees being scruffy, the fairways being a little thin and the bunkers too rough but if your greens are no good you are done!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2019, 08:04:05 AM »
There are a few courses that are particularly challenging from tee to green, Carnoustie and Royal County Down come to mind, that if you gave them 18 equally challenging green complexes would most likely be semi-unplayable for all but the elite player (even more so in poor weather).
On the other hand there are lessor courses from tee to green which need to be beefed-up at the green end otherwise blandness (boredom?) can prevail.

atb

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2019, 08:27:12 AM »
I am with Ian and Ally.  A course needs great green sitings to be great but not necessary to have wonderful green contours themselves.  Other than Number 16 (controversially), North Berwick greens are good but not great.  Same is true of Ballybunion.  I do not even think that it is the greens themselves that distinguish Royal Dornoch or even CPC.  The green sitings are terrific though.


A few courses have both.  Pasatiempo, Pacific Dunes, and Pine Needles come to mind.  Pinehurst 2 is the course I have played that of course is most dependent on the green contours, but even there, the routing is much better than it gets credit for.



Ira

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2019, 01:39:07 PM »
I like how PP stated his case as an opinion rather than fact. That's golf, in a nutshell.


My preference is to have a set of greens that are a strong contributor to the strategy of the course, rather than just along for the ride.


Sometimes I get caught up with enjoying the ambiance of a place to the point that I forgive greens that didn't ask much of me during the round, except that they be hit and putt upon. But all the other stuff better be really good for me to think that way.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2019, 03:15:17 PM »
In general, I agree with Peter's take.  There are not many architects today who build great greens, and that's the defining characteristic of those who have risen to the top.  (Also, if you are going to be a minimalist, you'd better build great greens.)


There are exceptions to any rule.  County Down and Carnoustie are exceptions.



I will also agree with Ian and Joe that it's much easier to build a great green if you're starting in a good place.  But if you're not, then you're not likely to keep building great greens, and then you will fail Peter's test.



P.S. Mark Buehrle?  Seriously?

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2019, 04:04:46 PM »


P.S. Mark Buehrle?  Seriously?




Noticed this too and thought Peter should stick to using jazz as his metaphor. He's probably a Blue Jays fan.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2019, 05:32:58 PM »
What great courses have a great set of greens with a poor routing?


Of course as a golf course builder, a great set of greens comes up on top. But as a golf course, it is rare that a poor routing and a poor site can be overcome by greens.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 05:53:13 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2019, 11:41:35 PM »
Jeff, Tom -
ah, I was too subtle for you! :)
I mention Buerhle because, yes, I liked him as a Blue Jay, even at the end of his career. But more so because of what he 'represents', i.e. no excuses, no complaints. He came out, pitched fast, never shook off the sign, there were no blisters or hangnails or oblique strains -- just 200+ innings, year after year, for a remarkable 14/15 years in a row! [And plus, some 215 wins, and a no hitter and a perfect game is nothing to sneeze at]. Which is to say: if he was a gca, you wouldn't hear him say peep about the client (impinging on his vision) or the site being clay instead of sand or the lack of elevation changes etc. He'd just build his greens, like he was being paid to do.


Ally - as Joe noted, I do raise it as a thought/opinion and not a fact: but I do think many have raised what is a false dichotomy, as if the great green builder (and actually I don't mean like the greens at Pinehurst #2) is an idiot when it comes to the rest of golf, slapping down some poor convoluted routing just to get to his greens. Also, folks keep raising the spectre of the "great course", but in a way I'm not talking about a great course but *any* course:
I've been thinking a lot about 2 very minor Stanley Thompson courses I've played now a few times -- for whatever combination of reasons neither are in Canada's Top 100 (I don't think), or even in Ontario's Top 50. I'll defer to that consensus opinion, just for the sake of argument, i.e. I'll agree neither is anywhere near being a "great course". Then how come both have jumped right to the top of my list of favourite courses that I get to play? Because the greens are exponentially better than everywhere else.
 

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2019, 02:00:01 AM »
Peter, I don’t disagree with what you are saying. A great set of greens is of huge importance when talking about elevating a course’s standing. As I said previously, even more important when talking about *any* course, the ones that don’t stand out in other respects.


But the overall quality of site and holes come first, of which a complementary green is just one part.


Crail Craighead (Hanse) has a beautifully built set of greens on a dullish site with no other earthworks. It is a long way from being a great course.


Royal County Down has a set of so-so greens on a site where everything else comes together perfectly. It is voted the best course in the world by some magazines. (although I happen to think it overrated, partially because of those greens. Portrush is better with its best set of greens in Ireland).


In fairness, I think this question is less aimed at GB&I links and more at American golden age courses, where wonderful, elegant green sets often are the maketh of a course. Maybe Chicago GC or Somerset Hills? In Britain, the great green was often found, not built.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2019, 11:28:57 AM »
Our home course in Maryland has very good--and perhaps great--greens.  Significant slope in various directions plus meaningful and not hokey interior contours.  They are challenging and fun to putt.  The course dates back to the Golden Age.  No one would consider it anything more than an average course despite the greens.  Why?  The routing is such that the greens do not really affect strategy except on a few holes.  Some of this could be fixed by presentation--opening up the necks and creating some chipping areas.  But the routing is the routing.


Ira

Peter Pallotta

Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2019, 07:13:05 PM »
PS
And Max Scherzer coming back unexpectedly after an injury to play a crucial role in Game 7 is akin to the best possible restoration (you pick)of a golden age classic that involved bringing the greens back to life.
See how good this analogy is?
No? 

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2019, 07:35:37 PM »
My wife's father used to say "it's better to be rich and healthy than sick and poor".  A funny truism but I think it applies here.  A great routing with terrific greens beats a course lacking one or the other.  Nonetheless, few courses qualify so Peter asks, which attribute is more important?  To a real degree, routing is destiny.  Yet without great greens, the course can only be so good.  Similarly, a course with great greens and surrounds will always be fun and interesting but if the tee to green game is mundane, it will lack a certain amount of interest.  I suspect that a portion of the time, the property dictates what can be done although it is certainly more feasible to create great greens on a mundane site.  However, even that problem can be cured by money for earth moving.  My preference, if I have to choose, runs toward great greens.  But that is a preference.


As for Buerhle, I grew up in old Comiskey Park and am a lifelong White Sox fan.  More accurately, I am a baseball fan who roots for the Sox.  While Buerhle was never overpowering, he threw strikes, changed speeds and fielded his position while taking the ball every fifth day.  As a result, he had an acceptable ERA for his time and won a lot of games for mostly mediocre teams.  While he might not have been an "ace" for many teams, almost any team would have been happy to have him in their starting rotation because he was a winner.  He retired with plenty left in the tank.  I suspect that's what Peter was expressing in suggesting that Buerhle as a starter was the equivalent of a course with good greens but lacking other attributes to make it "great".

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2019, 07:55:34 PM »
Peter and Shel,


It pains me to disagree with you on a few points, but I grew up in Wrigley. Ferguson Jenkins is a Hall of Fame pitcher because he represented great routing, but the team never could quite finish the deal with great greens. And one of the sad parts of baseball history is that Banks, Santo, and Williams never saw the World Series.


Ira

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2019, 06:13:46 AM »
Peter and Shel,


It pains me to disagree with you on a few points, but I grew up in Wrigley. Ferguson Jenkins is a Hall of Fame pitcher because he represented great routing, but the team never could quite finish the deal with great greens. And one of the sad parts of baseball history is that Banks, Santo, and Williams never saw the World Series.


Ira




Any mention of FJ is worth quoting--one of my favorite pitchers growing up.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2019, 06:44:29 AM »
Great greens will save a golf course on a site where routing doesn't matter.


Any flat-site Donald Ross course will demonstrate that.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2019, 10:26:56 AM »
Ira,  I think that Peter's point was that greens were to GCA as starting pitching is to a baseball team.  Thus Fergie, who i watched from the other side of town, was the equivalent of the greens, not the routing.  Moreover, in the great collapse of 69, the Mets won largely on the strength of their pitching staff led by the young Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, Gary Gentry and a promising guy named Ryan along with relievers led by Tug McGraw.  The Cub staff led by Fergie, Holtzman and Hands didn't match up.  As for Fergie, a wonderful pitcher in an era dominated by great pitching.  His best years came just after Koufax, Gibson and Marichal had set the standard in the NL,
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 12:02:30 PM by SL_Solow »

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2019, 10:52:42 AM »
Ira,  I think that Peter's point was that greens were to GCA as starting pitching is to a baseball team.  Thus Fergie, who i watched from the other side of town, was the equivalent of the greens, not the routing.  Moreover, in the great collapse of 69, the Mets won largely on the strength of their pitching staff led by the young Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, Gary Gentry and a promising guy named Ryan along with relievers led by tug McGraw.  The Cub staff led by Fergie, Holtzman and Hands didn't match up.  As for Fergie, a wonderful pitcher in an era dominated by great pitching.  His best years came just after Koufax, Gibson and Marichal had set the standard in the NL,


Shel,


Yes, I understood Peter's point, but as you can see from my prior posts, I do not agree about great greens being more important than great routing; hence, I reversed the analogy.  And leave it to a Sox fan to remind me of 1969!


Ira

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2019, 11:01:30 AM »
Played Little League in 1969 for a coach who'd spent 5 years in the Cubs' minor league system--a diehard Cubs fan. Even for this non-Chicagoan, it was painful to witness that collapse. Guess it was probably fun to watch for White Sox fans.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Give me Starting Pitching - Give Me Great Green Builders
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2019, 11:17:27 AM »
I have occasionally pondered how a course on completely flat and featurelesss, hazard free terrain but with 18 evil, diabolically fearsome greens where positioning for the approach into them given the pin position of the day was absolutely crucial would play. And then I wake up! :) I suspect others may have had the same dream or thoughts.

Atb