Flynn’s top 6 in Philly might be the best in an area by one designer.

[mike_malone]

 Huntingdon Valley, Lancaster, Lehigh, Manufacturers, Philadelphia, and Rolling Green are acknowledged as Flynn’s top efforts in Philly.


 I am lucky that we have a opportunity to play HVCC,Lancaster, and Lehigh at any time. This has increased my love for these places and I always loved PCC and Manny’s.


I guess the number one competitor would be Tillinghast in Metro NY.


Can you think of six great courses by one architect in one area? You can travel easily in a day to play them all defines “area” for me.


I must say the one thing I most enjoy is the constant necessity to carry an angled bunker to reach the green. These types of bunkers aren’t parallel which I find baffling as an architectural idea or ringing the front or back so you just avoid them. You must decide.


You can find 10 people to play all of these and likely will have each one being named as the most fun on at least one ballot. Where else is that true?


Come to Philly and play them.

[David_Tepper]

Mayday -

I would think there are likely a large number of quality Donald Ross courses within say a 100 mile radius of Providence, RI. 

DT

[mike_malone]

Mayday -
I would think there are likely a large number of quality Donald Ross courses within say a 100 mile radius of Providence, RI. 

DT

Quality is nice but are they top rated classics?

[mike_malone]

 I believe at one time or another each of these six have been ranked in the top 100 classic list. That’s fairly special.

[David_Tepper]

Mike -
 
There are 40+ Ross courses in MA and 11 Ross courses in RI. Among them are Essex County, Newport & Salem. That is a pretty good start.

The list of all his courses is here:

http://donaldrossgolfcourses.com/donald-ross-golf-courses.html

DT

[mike_malone]

Mike -

There are 40+ Ross courses in MA and 11 Ross courses in RI. Included are Newport, Essex County, Salem. That is a pretty good start. 


The list of all his courses is here:

http://donaldrossgolfcourses.com/donald-ross-golf-courses.html

DT

David,
That’s almost as many as Flynn’s total portfolio. I would expect there then to be at least three more great courses .

[David_Tepper]

The Golfweek Classic 100 list includes:

Newport, Essex County, Wannamoisett, Whitinsville, Salem & Misquamicut

There are your 6.

https://golfcoursegurus.com/rankings/golfweektop100classic.php


FYI: There appear to be 9 Tillinghast courses within 75 miles of NYC on that list.

DT

[mike_malone]

The Golfweek Classic 100 list includes:

Newport, Essex County, Wannamoisett, Whitinsville, Salem & Misquamicut

There are your 6.

https://golfcoursegurus.com/rankings/golfweektop100classic.php

DT

I wish I played any of those so I could comment.

[Jon Cavalier]

Seth Raynor has Southampton, Westhampton, Fishers Island, and Bellport on or near Long Island, plus NGLA, Piping Rock and The Creek via association with CBM, plus a slew of others around the NYC area.

[Jeff Schley]

Seth Raynor has Southampton, Westhampton, Fishers Island, and Bellport on or near Long Island, plus NGLA, Piping Rock and The Creek via association with CBM, plus a slew of others around the NYC area.

Or you could go with CBM himself in NY depending on if you want to give him any Shinneocock credit and don't forget Lido. You still have NGLA, Creek, Piping Rock, Sleepy Hollow, original Deepdale.
Ross has so many courses compared to CBM/Raynor, but going to NY is so deep for that pair it is hard to beat, which ever one you wanted to go with.

[Ronald Montesano]

Where the GPS is taking us, it seems, is that there are some metro areas that do have this sort of funnel, albeit not all of them. What about Colt in England? MacKenzie in Australia?


The combination of available & great land, an architect who needed to build (for history or to make a living), and the deep pockets of a wealthy membership, is not found everywhere. There were only so many opportunities, and once a name was established, it was difficult to break into the inner circle.


My, how times have not changed.

[Tim Martin]

From the 1st tee at Rolling Green to either Lehigh or Lancaster is roughly sixty miles. If you travel from the first tee at Winged Foot to any of the following you would meet that parameter for Metro NY. There are a number of others that could also be added besides what is below.


Winged Foot West
Winged Foot East
Quaker Ridge
Fenway
Bethpage Black
Ridgewood

[Tim Martin]

Rochester-Donald Ross


Oak Hill East
Oak Hill West
Irondequoit
CC of Rochester
Monroe
Brook-Lea

[Tim Martin]

Boston-Donald Ross


Essex County
Salem
Winchester
Worcester
Charles River
Brae Burn

[mark chalfant]

Plymouth Country Club and George Wright are two superb layouts near Boston

[Tim Martin]

Plymouth Country Club and George Wright are two superb layouts near Boston

Mark-You could easily put George Wright into the Boston list for sure. I think you could come up with another list that includes Plymouth as part of South Shore/Cape Cod Ross courses.


Plymouth
Oyster Harbors
Wianno
Hyannisport
Cohasset
Pocasset or Bass River-Pick em

[MCirba]

For the record, Newport is mostly a Tillinghast redesign.


I'd have to go back to Sven's compendium but I'm not sure there was ever all that much Ross there.

[Tom_Doak]

I would vote for the six Philly courses over the other lists presented so far.


I'm guessing that Harry Colt's six best courses near London would mount a decent challenge.

[corey miller]

Sadly, I take a giant collar on the Philly six but have played more than a few of the Tillinghast NYC metro courses (all within 60 miles of Winged Foot first tee BTW).  I consider the Tilly parkland metro NY bakers dozen (13 in golfweek top 200) very over-rated at the top but nonetheless, it would seem they win on a walkover against Flynn in Philadelphia.


Or are the rankings that far out of whack?  I welcome any individual comparisons between the courses but it would seem the Philly view is not even close.


NYC: WFW(17),Somerset (24), Bethpage (25), WFE (29), Quaker Ridge (31), Baltusrol L (41), Ridgewood (56), Baltusrol U (58), Fenway (75), Sands Point (143), Brooklawn (180), Metropolis (188), Paramount (192)




Philly:  Lancaster (73), Rolling Green (104) , Philly CC (109), Lehigh (117), Hunt Valley (132), Manufacturers (151)


Does Lancaster even come close to the the eight listed above it in NYC metro? 

[Tim Martin]

Sadly, I take a giant collar on the Philly six but have played more than a few of the Tillinghast NYC metro courses (all within 60 miles of Winged Foot first tee BTW).  I consider the Tilly parkland metro NY bakers dozen (13 in golfweek top 200) very over-rated at the top but nonetheless, it would seem they win on a walkover against Flynn in Philadelphia.


Or are the rankings that far out of whack?  I welcome any individual comparisons between the courses but it would seem the Philly view is not even close.


NYC: WFW(17),Somerset (24), Bethpage (25), WFE (29), Quaker Ridge (31), Baltusrol L (41), Ridgewood (56), Baltusrol U (58), Fenway (75), Sands Point (143), Brooklawn (180), Metropolis (188), Paramount (192)




Philly:  Lancaster (73), Rolling Green (104) , Philly CC (109), Lehigh (117), Hunt Valley (132), Manufacturers (151)


Does Lancaster even come close to the the eight listed above it in NYC metro?

Cory-Lancaster is worthy and a more compelling play than the last four on your list and a jump ball with Fenway IMO.

[corey miller]

Tim


It appears you confirm the sanctity of the Golfweek rankings...If true, Flynn/Philly is not even close to NYC/Tilly.  I would be willing to listen to Mike Malone/Tom Doak argument as I find the Tilly courses over-rated relative to other classic course I have played but


What is wrong with the Golfweek list?  Which courses in the top 100 Golfweek list should be replaced by the Phily courses?


It has to be some or the original argument is a little hard to justify. 

[archie_struthers]

 


Always impressed with Tim Martins' take on golf in general and courses in particular. I'm going to go with what I think is a slight nod from Tim and Tom that Philly is ahead by a nose. Some really good courses and hope to play many of them again soon.


I'm an unabashed Flynn fan!

[Carl Rogers]

Huntingdon Valley ..,....,
Come to Philly and play them.

Need inivitation

[Tom_Doak]

Or are the rankings that far out of whack?  I welcome any individual comparisons between the courses but it would seem the Philly view is not even close.

NYC: WFW(17),Somerset (24), Bethpage (25), WFE (29), Quaker Ridge (31), Baltusrol L (41), Ridgewood (56), Baltusrol U (58), Fenway (75), Sands Point (143), Brooklawn (180), Metropolis (188), Paramount (192)

Philly:  Lancaster (73), Rolling Green (104) , Philly CC (109), Lehigh (117), Hunt Valley (132), Manufacturers (151)


Does Lancaster even come close to the the eight listed above it in NYC metro?

Corey:


Yes, the rankings could be that far out of whack.


Or to put it another way - you are reading far too much into the difference between 30th and 110th place on those lists. 


Most of those courses are 7's on the Doak scale -- they are virtually interchangeable, and the difference is personal preference.  The NYC courses are rated higher because of their history of tournament play, and the history of the GOLF DIGEST rankings, which has infected everyone else's rankings.  Fenway gets dragged UP the list of courses nationally because it's very close to Winged Foot and arguably just as good . . . instead of Winged Foot getting dragged DOWN for the same reason.  [Don't forget, the last three editors of GOLF DIGEST were all members of Winged Foot.]


Looking at it another way, the property of each of the six Philadelphia-area courses mentioned is more interesting than for any of the Westchester County courses.  It's hillier, and some panelists may not like that as much, but it definitely has more variety to it, and leads to a bigger variety of holes.  Nearly all of the Flynn courses have five par-3 holes, and there are only a couple out of 29 or 30 that seem like repeats.  Either of the two front-nine par-3 holes at Winged Foot West would be a castoff at Rolling Green or Manufacturers or Lancaster.

[mike_malone]

Huntingdon Valley ..,....,
Come to Philly and play them.
[/quote
Need invitation.

Always welcome at RG.