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Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2019, 11:42:13 AM »

First class quote from Don M above.

With regard to one point - "With a trees course like Medinah, eliminate the rough so slightly off center shots actually run into the trees" - such a set-up if applied to the usual amateur game makes seeing and therefore finding balls a lot easier thus speeding up the the pace of play.

atb

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2019, 11:43:25 AM »

Don,


Some good points, but not without some counter points that might not work out as well, unless of course, you are planning on mothballing the course for a year until the next year's tournament.


I think this course resonates with me because it was the first course I ever played (courtesy of my next door neighbors who were members…..) Of course, after that, I was relegated to muni's by my non club joining Dad, so I probably hold this course in more awe than others.  By the end of the day on No. 3, I had decided I would be a golf course architect.


That said, I often laugh that at the tender age of about 12 to 15, I decided the best architectural theory was fewer, but very deep bunkers like No. 3 had.  Funny, but the design world (including me) went to more bunkers for looks and shallower bunkers for "playability" which are perfectly reasonable design assumptions for every day play. 


The bad points about your tough theories, as correct as they may be, is anything that affects a tour player affects the average one 4X, maybe 10X.  Reverse slope greens hard to hold from the wrong angle, I have designed those and of course average golfers run through and good ones just hit higher spin shots.  At the moment, I think they only work perhaps on short par 5 holes or maybe long par 4 holes (if there is such a thing for those guys) where players may be reaching the green on the roll.


More contours?  Isn't tournament golf too much putting already?


Less sand hazards, I agree with.  Grow grass bunkers long for tournaments, shave them back afterwards to make them more playable.  Of, for tournament golf make sand bunkers deeper as before, or at least for existing shallow ones, as CBM suggested, run the cavalry through them.  Only problem is, JN experimented with Oakmont furrows at MV, and the players didn't like even that, and the experiment ended.  The architect is only in charge of the design, not the eventual course set up, but reducing sand hazards, given the current situation, should work.


Ditto letting balls run in trees.  It might have to be very site specific, which is okay, why is it necessary to have consistency that golfers can count on helping them (at that level?)


On open holes, given the ineffectiveness of sand bunkers on strategy, in most cases, I have occasionally suggested (only to be laughed out of the room) roughs (which still do affect play somewhat, depending on height) of different lengths left and right of the fw, rather than equal, to bring back Golden Age type strategies.  You would probably challenge a 2000 sf fw bunker to get an angle, but challenging the whole length of fw with 5" rough or bailing out to the 1.5" rough side might create some dilemma.  I don't really know, I guess.  Heck, they could even change height the further you get from the tee (i.e., 1.5" up to 250 off the tee, changing to 5" somewhere thereafter.) I don't think it's feasible to have 1" for 50 yards, 1.5" for 50 yards, 2" etc. which would be the ultimate in "proportional punishment."


As to dogleg holes, Medinah No. 9 and 16 offer some examples of what happened.  At 200 yards in 1931, they became obsolete.  As Arnie complained, 18 required a snap slice to play.  Jack complained about 16 (then 13, I believe) having such a short, sharp dogleg after the 1975 Open and basically that started Medinah's drop in the rankings. Jack, of course, also pioneered in large part the architectural line of thinking that (in his words)  "a golf course should never hurt you." 


Maybe the next gen or tour pros in design will take an opposite track, but even incorporating Jack's theories, winning scores were still pretty low and he got a lot of complaints, eventually requiring him to soften his theories, again, because average golfers just couldn't play his courses.....(think greens angled across the line of play.  Fazio also used that at Butler National, which worked well until the bluegrass fw were converted to bent and tournament agronomy took over, allowing Tour Players enough spin to stop on a dime no matter how shallow the green.



Maybe that's the ticket, leave the courses and let the fairways get a bit shaggier?  Or reduce watering, as you also suggested, for a fast running course.  Would the pros say (as JN also said) that it reduces the relationship between skill and winning just to make sure high scores won?  He and others have obviously striven to reduce the amount of luck in the game, and you would have to change the mindset that you could be hitting great shots all day and still have one "bad" bounce drop you in the standings (and money list).   


My last never implemented suggestion for roughs.....poison ivy!  Get in there, and not only hard to hit out, but you may have to DQ yourself by the next day.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 11:49:52 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2019, 11:52:53 AM »
Rough lines, fairway heights, bunker depths, amount of bunkers,  greens undulation, fairway undulation, new tees, more trees, on and on and on...

...Or just fix the ball...

https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/article/occam-s-razor-the-simplest-solution-is-always-the-best
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 11:54:42 AM by Kalen Braley »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2019, 12:16:40 PM »

Kalen,


I doubt that will ever happen, so don't waste time thinking about it.  And, it would be like telling doctors to go back to "blood letting" (depending on how much of a rollback we are talking about....but even going back a decade in medicine would be a real step back, no?)


It's up to designers (and maybe clubs instructions to their supers) to design for the situation we can foresee, like Ross leaving space for new back tees (even if 100 years later, it has proven it wasn't enough)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2019, 01:00:04 PM »
Rain delay just as Gary Woodland finishes the 17th hole, with a smooth 8 under par round just one away from the new record low set by Matsuyama.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2019, 02:23:42 PM »
Woodland had to settle for an 8-under-par 64, which would have been the record had Matsuyama not poured in 23- and 30-footers on his last two holes on Friday. (And Matsuyama parred the two par 5s on the back.)


The 69-player field averaged 69.275 strokes – 2.725 under par – in the first round. That ranks No. 3 in all Western Open / BMW rounds in relation to par, and No. 1 when two rounds played under lift, clean and place are considered. It was set up at 7,484 yards with a light north wind turning the 14th into a par-4.


It is insane how far they hit it, and how well they recover from shots off line. Fun to watch, but just as auto racing bodies control engine power to keep cars from flying off the track, golf needs bifurcation to prevent the 8,000-yard course.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2019, 02:51:03 PM »
Tim,


If golf course length had kept apace with professional distance gains in the past 50 years I would think our tournament courses would need to be about 8500 yards, on average.


I used to ask how long the 18th at Merion would need to be today for Tiger or some other top professional to hit driver-2 iron as Hogan did in 1950.


I suspect the answer given the topography of that hole would be well over 600 yards.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2019, 03:24:41 PM »
We participate on our level, we watch at only the highest levels. Bifurcate and who will tune in to watch people like us? And you argue that it will be the same problem who watch the LPGA. How are those numbers?


Why not bifurcate porn? Raise the minimum age from 18 to 50. Same concept.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2019, 04:03:27 PM »
Justin Thomas birdies the first five holes. OMG.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2019, 04:31:57 PM »
Justin Thomas birdies the first five holes. OMG.


Isn't that special?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2019, 05:17:23 PM »
There are only two players in the field over par, both +1.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2019, 05:34:02 PM »
It’s a limited field playing for a $15,000,000 bonus pool. Why would anyone play poorly?

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2019, 05:56:52 PM »
It’s a limited field playing for a $15,000,000 bonus pool. Why would anyone play poorly?
John it hasn't been that long since you have played in a competitive event.
Starts with a P and ends with en E, and the band Queen used it in a famous title song. Wanting to play well and actually executing are two different things.  The saying the cream always rises up to the top is true most of the time (with a few outliers now and then).
As much as it is disappointing to see the best in the world dismantle one of the great venues of our beloved sport, it is amazing to see where these guys are hitting the ball. Like many here I have played Medinah several times and seeing some guys take an IRON into a over 600 yard par 5 where it was a three shot hole for me from 500 really should demand our respect for how good they have become.
Does Medinah have to play like a US Open for us to appreciate the golf course?  I don't think so, the weather has dictated the scoring by and large and our friends in the UK can accept that. Doesn't demote Medinah in my eyes.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2019, 07:03:18 PM »
New course record of 61 by Justin Thomas.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2019, 07:39:34 PM »
Sounds like all those idiots who yelled get in the hole got their wish.

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2019, 07:56:12 PM »
Sounds like all those idiots who yelled get in the hole got their wish.


Justice delivered perversely, it would seem!
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

JReese

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2019, 08:15:44 PM »
New course record of 61 by Justin Thomas.


#liveunderpar
"Bunkers are not places of pleasure; they are for punishment and repentance." - Old Tom Morris

Peter Pallotta

Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2019, 09:09:47 PM »
Subtlety and nuance have never sold big in America, the land of Cadillacs, roller coasters, Madonna and 72 ounce steaks; but watching today — ball go far, shot stop dead, putt roll straight — was the equivalent of eating chocolate sundaes, three times a day, every day. Strangely, I think I blame Pete Dye for this
PS
Justin Thomas is a great young golfer, and it’s a pleasure watching someone so talented — but ironically he seems *less* talented and it’s less of a pleasure to watch when *everybody* hits it long and straight and high every single time
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 09:31:30 PM by Peter Pallotta »

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2019, 09:37:31 PM »
Finau and Thomas holed out four times today. Four times! 


I haven’t holed out in two years.


Not sure what to do about that.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2019, 10:10:02 PM »
Are we sure they didn't sneak them over to #1?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2019, 12:00:42 AM »
Why isn't playing a 50 yard forward tee bifurcation enough?

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2019, 12:22:42 AM »
Finau and Thomas holed out four times today. Four times! 


I haven’t holed out in two years.


Not sure what to do about that.


Make the hole smaller?

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2019, 12:46:37 AM »
Adam Scott weighs in:


Scott bemoaned push-over layouts on the US circuit after his third round at the BMW Championship - where 65 of the 69-player field are under par at the 7,600-yard Medinah Country Club.[/color][/font]
[/color]"They haven't figured out yet that long means nothing to us; you can't build it long enough," Scott said after shooting a three-under 69 to finish day three at nine under.[/color]
[/color]"I'm not (surprised to see low scores at Medinah); if a golf course is soft we are just going to tear it apart," Scott said.[/color]
[/color]But Scott says unimaginative courses that don't ask competitors to spin the ball a certain way are why winning scores are ballooning.[/color]
[/color]"And I'm not challenging (PGA Tour officials and course designers) to build longer golf courses; I'm challenging them to build smarter golf courses," he said.[/color]
[/color]"If you require us to shape tee shots to get it in play we're going to struggle.[/color]
[/color]"(Now) we just play straight, everything is straight. While there is an option to go over trees and over bunkers, it is just relentless."[/color]
[/color]Scott warned superstar drivers may no longer stand out, such as Australia's Greg Norman and American Davis Love III did in previous eras.[/color]
[/color]"The driver is the most forgiving club in the bag now; it's just swing as hard as you can and get it down there far," he said.[/color]
[/color]"It's not a skilful part of the game anymore and it's really unfair for some guys who are great drivers of the golf ball.[/color]
[/color][/size]
[/color]"I don't think their talents are showing up as much as they should."[/color]

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2019, 05:38:58 AM »
Perhaps we should look at this event at Medinah in a very different light ......... for showing up and highlighting how ridiculous men's pro golf at the elite level has become.
Sometimes you need to highlight the ridiculous before action is taken.
Fingers crossed although breath not held.
atb

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Defenseless Medinah
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2019, 05:58:04 AM »
Why isn't playing a 50 yard forward tee bifurcation enough?


Because it does not stop there. I am told that 2 greens at Merion were altered in the most recent renovation. The chase of and against distance and speed does not stop at the 50 yard tee difference, it continues on to the entire presentation of the golf course.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

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