Camperdown to close?

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/955985/council-reveals-plans-to-axe-camperdown-golf-course-in-dundee/



Council reveals plans to axe Camperdown Golf Course in Dundee
by Stefan Morkis
August 13 2019





Camperdown Golf Course could be shut down in order to save around £400,000 of public money each year.


Councillors  in Dundee will be asked to approve proposals that will see the city council’s golf provision concentrated in Caird Park instead.


To compensate for the loss of Camperdown Golf Course, the council wants to build a new nine-hole course and driving range in addition to the existing course at Caird Park.


It is intended these would complement the Regional Performance Centre for Sport.


Camperdown Golf course was opened in 1959.


The 6,548-yard, 18-hole championship qualifying course has been described as one of the “magnificent seven” courses in “Carnoustie country”.


A report to go before the council’s policy and resources committee states the gross expenditure on golf provision is in the region of £820,000 annually, with the operator, Leisure & Culture Dundee, requiring a subsidy of £440,000.


Implementation of the proposals, including the creation of a new driving range, could reduce the subsidy to £54,000 by 2021.


The report states problems with the infrastructure at the Camperdown course were identified in a 2016 technical report which indicated woodland management, drainage and irrigation would need significant investment to resolve and maintain playability.


A decline in golf participation nationally has been mirrored in Dundee with the number of rounds played at Camperdown Golf Course dropping from 23,968 in 2009/10 to 17,369 in 2018/19 with the club’s membership currently standing at 90.


Councillors will hear that the city council is not in a position to fully subsidise the delivery of golf at both parks and as a result Leisure & Culture Dundee will only operate golf services at Caird Park.


Council leader John Alexander, convener of Dundee City Council’s policy and resources committee, said: “This is a sensible approach to try to ensure sustainable public golf for the future in the face of difficult financial challenges.


“We welcome the innovative proposal from Leisure & Culture Dundee, as it shows that they are thinking about how to provide and develop the sport of golf and new participants in the future.


“The development of a driving range and the reinstatement of the nine-hole course at Caird Park would provide a first-class facility near to the Regional Performance Centre for Sport.”


“I would hope that when the golfers used to playing Camperdown see the new facilities planned for Caird Park, and the extremely good value for money offered by Dundee’s municipal golf facilities when compared with other alternatives, that they will make the move.”


The proposal comes as councillors also consider a report detailing the performance and impact of Leisure & Culture Dundee’s activities in 2018/19.


It reports an increase in customers across library and Information, cultural and leisure and sports services, taking the total to more than 3.1m.


In the same time period the organisation had a gross turnover of £15.9m.


More than a million visits were made in person to city’s libraries, with Dundee Central Library retaining its position as the busiest public library in Scotland.


A total of 63,236 individuals borrowed 1,458,127 items in 2018/19. The libraries also delivered 11,425 digital literacy sessions.


The success of the Bash Street Kids exhibition boosted visitor numbers at The McManus to 205,000, up 30% on the previous year, and more than 123,000 transactions were completed at the city box office.


Broughty Castle Museum welcomed 49,000 visitors, almost 10% up on 2017/18 and more than 14,000 people were involved in the museums learning programmes.


Leisure and sports venues welcomed more than 1.7m visitors, almost half (627,000) of whom used Dundee’s swimming pools.


The McTaggart Regional Gymnastics Centre hosted 117,000 visits and 90,000 attended Camperdown Wildlife Centre.


Sinclair Aitken, chairman of Leisure & Culture Dundee added: “We’ve had another successful year managing facilities and services which provide wonderful cultural and leisure opportunities for the citizens of, and visitors to Dundee.


“We are excited by the proposals to establish a comprehensive golf centre in Caird Park and look forward to operating the nearby Regional Performance Centre for Sport which is due to open shortly.


“This will add to the many venues that Leisure & Culture Dundee (L&CD) operates on behalf of the Dundee City Council.


“However, we are sad that circumstances have led to the proposed closure of Camperdown golf course and hope that golfers will embrace the range of new playing facilities planned for Caird Park.


“Our management and staff continue to design, encourage and provide for the cultural, leisure and sporting aspirations of local people and our thanks are due to these loyal customers who continue to support L&CD.”


The policy and resources committee meets on Monday.

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/golf/956338/comment-camperdown-another-symbol-of-golfs-participation-decline/



COMMENT: Potential Camperdown Golf Course closure another symbol of golf’s participation decline
by Steve Scott
August 13 2019


We’ve known in golf that times like this were coming, but that doesn’t make it any easier to take.


Camperdown is much the better of the two public courses in Dundee as a pure test of golf. However, it’s hard to argue with the logic of Dundee City Council in determining it rather than Caird Park should be the one to close.


Simple numbers dictate. The Camperdown club has just 90 members, rounds per year have fallen more than 6000 in less than 10 years. Both those numbers are indicative of golf’s slump in participation, and the fact in Scotland we have far too many courses for the people actually playing.


The national slump and over-provision have been warned about for a decade, and it was clear that some day course closures would happen.


Sadly, municipal golf seems to be taking the hit first. Just last week Glasgow City opened a consultation about the future of four of its public courses.


The subsidy to run both Dundee city courses is eye-opening – £440,000 a year. In addition there was impending expenditure on woodland management and drainage at Camperdown, but unless they plan to let the land grow over and go wild one would imagine some of that money will still be required.


Yet reducing public golf to the one site being developed as the city’s flagship for sport, adding a driving range and restoring one of the 9-hole courses lost a couple of decades ago reduces the subsidy to £50,000 and makes sense in terms of necessary provision.


It just isn’t any consolation at all for the city’s golfers.

[Thomas Dai]

Be interesting to see how things develop - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67456.0.html
The future or delaying the inevitable?
Atb

[Niall C]

The Glasgow consultation has actually been ongoing for some time.


Brian - was/is Camperdown any good ? It seems to me if you are to reduce from 18 holes to 9 holes it might be easier 6to do that with the existing 18 holer rather than shut it down completely and build 9 holes elsewhere albeit the alternative location will already have a clubhouse.


Niall

[Marty Bonnar]

Camperdown is/was a decent if forgettable parkland Course. Despite the fact I worked in and around the Park for a couple of years, I’ve played it only once.
Caird Park, on the other hand, as we all know is a COLT!
 
F.

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/957125/club-captain-dismayed-over-camperdown-golf-course-axe/



Club captain dismayed over Camperdown Golf Course axe
by Stefan Morkis
August 15 2019


The captain of Camperdown Golf Club has said he feels like a “fool who has been used” after reassuring his members it was not under threat.


Ian McAlindon said rumours about the future of the club began circulating last year but he had been told its future was safe.


It emerged on Tuesday that Dundee City Council wants to close the course in an effort to save almost £400,000 a year in subsidies it pays to support golf in the city.


Council leader John  Alexander said the local authority could no longer justify supporting two municipal courses.


To offset the impact, the council will create a new nine-hole course at Caird Park, where the city’s other municipal course is located, and build a new driving range.


Mr McAlindon said: “The facts are that Caird Park have the same number of members as Camperdown. And their golf rounds have fallen just the same as all golf courses throughout Britain, apart from the elite.”


Mr McAlindon said he believes Camperdown has outperformed Caird Park since its maintenance contract was taken over by ID Verde and queried why season ticket prices were reduced if money was an issue.


Mr McAlindon added: “My own feelings are of real anger firstly as we were never contacted as a club regarding this closure issue.


“After 59 years of the club being in existence and being a rent payer I would expect a whole lot better.


“After taken over the captaincy in 2017 the committee and I have fought against the ongoing rumours saying the closure was inevitable but due to what the council told us in our meetings I backed them and told our membership on numerous occasions that not to worry.


“I feel like a fool that has been used.”


According to a report to go before the city council’s policy and resources committee on Monday “significant infrastructure works to drainage, woodland and irrigation” will be necessary to maintain playability at Camperdown.


Council leader John Alexander said efforts had been made to avoid closing the club.


He said: “We’ve explored other models, sponsorship and other sources of funding and sadly, none of them have come to anything.


“But now we are at crunch time and no politician can justify a subsidy of over £450,000 for golf, or to put it another way £9.35 for every round played.


“That’s a subsidy for the few, not the many and its not justifiable when we seek to provide library services, sports and community facilities etc.


“The reality is the choice for politicians and the public is summarised by ‘would we rather fund a library or subsidise a golf course?’


A Scottish Golf spokesman said: “Municipal courses are part of the fabric of the grassroots game in Scotland and we are supportive of any strategy that is designed to improve participation.


“The proposed creation of a nine-hole course is in keeping with the shared objective to embrace the short-form game, which is attractive to younger people, and a new driving range will help introduce more people to golf before taking to the first tee.”

[Ryan Coles]

Why should local govt be subsidising and spending money on golf, when the private / voluntary sector provides comprehensive facilities at a range of price points?


I can understand sporting provision by Councils, but only where the market fails to provide affordable options for core sports providing health and exercise.


Public money propping up a golf club in a market where there is heavy over supply is the controversy, not the decision to pull the plug finally.

[Marty Bonnar]

Ryan,
I tend to agree with you. A number of Dundee’s neighbouring Councils have already moved much of their Sport and Leisure provision - including Golf - to Trust status. This has enormous cost-saving and tax-avoidance implications for Councils and seems to be becoming the business norm.
The public are now seeing the results of their indifference to sport, exercise and golf! Hellmendye, as my old granny would have said.
F.

[Brian_Ewen]

.

[Niall C]

Ryan,
I tend to agree with you. A number of Dundee’s neighbouring Councils have already moved much of their Sport and Leisure provision - including Golf - to Trust status. This has enormous cost-saving and tax-avoidance implications for Councils and seems to be becoming the business norm.
The public are now seeing the results of their indifference to sport, exercise and golf! Hellmendye, as my old granny would have said.
F.

FBD


I don't think you get Ryan's point. He's suggesting there shouldn't be any muni's since the private sector already can provide. Council's putting their leisure assets into ALEO's is just a tax dodge and doesn't mean the courses are not municipals in the accepted meaning of the word.


Niall

[Forrest Richardson]

Why should government subsidize golf? Because is the most social, awe-inspiring and value instilling game ever conceived. Far more good has come from introducing youth to golf than any other endeavor in the outdoors. To say, for example, that golf is somehow "less" than swimming, reading books or soccer, is — well — absurd. Yet, golf has "to pay its own way" and most governments will gladly fork over millions for all sorts of recreation...yet not golf. Sad.

I played Camperdown many times while studying in Dundee. While not the greatest layout or design, it is the canvas that strikes me as rich and worth saving. Too bad. It will now become some mundane park, of which the area has plenty.

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/960827/breaking-camperdown-golf-course-to-close-next-year-after-narrow-vote-by-city-councillors/



BREAKING: Camperdown Golf Course to close next year after narrow vote by city councillors
by Derek Healey
August 19 2019


Camperdown Golf Course will close next year after city councillors narrowly voted in favour of shutting it down.


Dundee City Council members voted 14-13 to scrap the iconic golf course and club, one of just two municipal courses in the city.


A new nine-hole course and driving range at Caird Park golf course will be created to compensate for the loss of Camperdown.


A report presented to members of the policy and resources committee stated player numbers have dwindled in recent years and public golf efforts should be consolidated at the council’s other course at Caird Park.


The report said the move would cut the level of golf subsidy needed by Leisure and Culture Dundee from £440,000 to £54,000 by 2021.


All SNP councillors and independent councillor Gregor Murray voted to accept the recommendation to close.


Will Dawson and Lord Provost Ian Borthwick were not in the chamber for the decision.

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/959503/world-renowned-golf-course-architect-says-shutting-camperdown-would-be-a-mistake/



World-renowned golf course architect says shutting Dundee’s Camperdown would be a mistake
by Jake Keith
August 19 2019





One of the world’s leading golf course designers says he is convinced the city council will regret shutting Dundee’s Camperdown facility if the move is voted through.


Forrest Richardson, who will next year take up the presidency of the American Society of Golf Course Architects, said he was “terribly saddened” to hear of plans to shut the 18-holer.


The well-respected American, once described as “the biggest name in golf course architecture” by Golf Digest magazine, learned his trade studying at Dundee University in 1976 and played the course “frequently” while living in the city for a year.


Describing golf as an “antidote” to technology, he said other options must be explored before closing the course completely.


In a plea to the council, he said: “I am terribly saddened to read about the decision to close Camperdown.


“Take another look. Save it. Why not invest in it? Make it better, more competitive and ready for a new generation of families, youngsters and your senior population.


“Why not add a short pitching course, a larger putting green for all to enjoy?


“You will get a better return on your investment than simply setting it aside as yet another passive park. Trust me.”


The council says axing the course, which is run by Leisure & Culture Dundee, would save an estimated £400,000 in subsidies.


To compensate for the loss, the local authority wants to build a new nine-hole course and driving range at Caird Park to complement its 18-hole course.


The Regional Performance Centre for Sport is currently under construction just a stone’s throw from the Caird Park course.


Mr Richardson has written five books on golf course architecture and is a contributor to magazines and publications on golf management and golf development.


Having founded Arizona-based Forrest Richardson & Associates, he has gone on to design, remodel, and restore over 20 golf courses across North America.


Most recently, the California-born 60-year-old completed an eight-month restoration of the nine-hole Roosevelt course in Griffith Park in Los Angeles.


He has also redesigned the former Palo Alto Municipal Golf Course to create Baylands Golf Links, which has been named by Golfweek Magazine as one of the top courses in California.


Mr Richardson added: “Far too often we hear of communities and their boards and commissioners taking the position that golf is not equal to other forms of recreation.


“That somehow golf should ‘pay its way’  and not have any subsidies but look at other parks and community assets.


“Do they return revenues? Not often. While golf, on the other hand, does produce revenue and it can, when properly managed and cared for, actually pay for itself.”


The council’s policy and resources committee will vote on the proposals on Monday night.


The 6,548-yard course was opened in 1959.

[Jon Wiggett]

Would they not save the same amount by simply franchising the facility out?

[Bernie Bell]

Perhaps the good folks of Dundee know best their own priorities and what they want the Council to do with their money.   

[Ben Stephens]

Like Forrest Richardson I also went to the University of Dundee from 1996 to 1999 and was part of the university golf team.

I have played Camperdown a few times. However the university team played most of their games/home matches at either Downfield (which is across the road from Camperdown) or Panmure.

Camperdown as a municipal course is very good quality compared to other municipal courses in England (Scotland municipals are generally in much better condition and looked after - Troon Lochgreen for example)

Surprisingly I never got around to play Caird Park so I can't judge which is the better course out of the two. Camperdown has nice rolling landscape with the front nine north of the big house and the back nine to the south. It has potential to be a better course and has enough space for large putting greens/pitch and putt. It does have potential.

I wonder whether Downfield GC should also take over the running of Camperdown and have 2 no 18 hole courses - it is probably too much of an ask. Hope someone can buy the lease of the course, upgrade it etc. Maybe GCA could crowdfund something like this?? very unlikely at this stage.

The same situation happened in Leicester where Western Park was forced to close and all the money was redirected to Humberstone Heights to be the sole municipal course in Leicester. 10 years ago there were 3 municipal courses in Leicester - Humberstone, Oadby Municipal (now reopened as a 9 hole course with driving range run by a private company which bought the lease - the 9 holes in Leicester racecourse is now abandoned) and Western Park.

Priors Hall in Corby was recently put out to separate tenders for the lease of 1. running the course, 2. the clubhouse and catering etc.

The Government financial allocation to councils UK wide has dropped hell of a lot during the last 10 years that councils are being stretched out and forced to make savings.

There is a saying that golf has health benefits and closing these courses could mean people getting less healthy and puts further strain on the NHS because there is a reduction of public sport facilities. One reason that it is not a cost saving exercise and being blind to the repercussions of closing public and affordable facilities.

Golf in general is becoming more and more for the rich people nowadays rather than for all.

[Colin Macqueen]

Bernie,


"Perhaps the good folks of Dundee know best their own priorities and what they want the Council to do with their money."
[/size][/color]
[/size]The "good folks of Dundee" have, historically, fared very badly regarding priorities and what the Council does with their monies! Dundee City Council has allowed monstrosities of architecture to be built over the last four decades, and having just demolished one of the the worst are allowing another to be built in its place at the back of the Town Hall ......a travesty! Furthermore the Council through the sixties, seventies and early eighties were adjudged to be crooked and corrupt evidenced by many of the "parcel of rogues" being given jail sentences once arraigned for corruption! So from my perspective, albeit from afar (pretty much as far as I can get here in Oz!) I'm not convinced the good denizens of Dundee would be in whole-hearted agreement with your sentiments ... nice as they are![/color]
[/size]Cheers Colin[/color]

[Brian_Ewen]

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/959735/opinion-closing-camperdown-golf-course-would-be-a-retrograde-step-for-dundee



OPINION: Closing Camperdown Golf Course will be a retrograde step for Dundee
by Graham Huband
August 19 2019


Camperdown was my playground as a youngster.


A brisk ten-minute walk from my front door, it offered a world of adventure.


The wildlife centre was a constant.


For a wide-eyed wee laddie, the deer and the peacocks and the creepy crawly house were fine, but I was really only interested in the big cats and the famous – and later infamous – Jeremy the bear and her sidekick Comet.


Then there was the original pirate playground – where walking the plank genuinely came with the possibility of death – and the monkey puzzle tree with its soft bark in front of the glorious mansion house that you could punch without hurting your hand.


Again, I was a wee boy.


But my real love was Camperdown Golf Club.


I had a junior ticket and spent as much time at Campy as I could with my half set of golf clubs and red Ping pencil bag which was so battered I had to place a cardboard insert in the bottom to stop my clubs from falling through.


It was brilliant.


My good pal Gareth – whose dad Keith was Camperdown club captain for a period – was naturally talented at golf, while I was an enthusiastic hacker.


I was roundly drubbed almost every time we played but it meant my one and only monthly junior medal win was all the more special.


I still have it in its presentation box in the house somewhere.


It was a great time and, as a direct result of my waywardness as a golfer, I can truly say I have explored every nook and cranny of that golf course.


It is long and with its tree-lined fairways and undulating topography, it is a real test of parkland golf.


But now that brilliant childhood refuge – a place that fostered my lifelong love of golf and which delivered wonderfully random moments such as the exploding burger van at the back of the 11th tee (does anybody know of Bob Servant’s whereabouts that night?) – is set to close after a Dundee Council meeting on Monday night.


As a municipal facility the core issue is, of course, money.


Given the myriad pressures on council services, I understand that completely.


But the closure of Camperdown Golf Course will still be a retrograde step for this city and one that I fear we may live to regret.


Camperdown is by far the superior municipal course in Dundee.


But the golfing eggs are in the Caird Park basket because of the location of the new Regional Performance Centre for Sport and a vision to build a real leisure hub in that area. Again, I get that.


Expensive, time-consuming, 18-hole golf is on the wane in Scotland.


Camperdown, and many other courses, is a victim of that and is certainly under-used and under-loved these days.


But good marketing, external investment or alternate ownership options and innovative schemes such as cut-price nine-hole or six golf – or even footgolf could help revive its fortunes.


They would certainly have been avenues worth exploring before the axe fell.


Get in touch with your local office at Dundee or send a letter to The Courier at letter@thecourier.co.uk

[Colin Macqueen]

Gentlemen,


I understand that the closure of Camperdown Golf Course has just been sealed and delivered by the difference of a single vote in Council Chambers. Somebody, somewhere was fighting a rear-guard action but failed.


Yours sadly, Colin

[Niall C]

This afternoon I'm going to play the nine hole course at Alexandra Park in Glasgow. It is not only the oldest golfing ground in Glasgow still be played over but it is also one of the muni's in Glasgow that are all under threat. I thought I'd better play them when I still have the chance.


In the last few weeks I've played Lethamhill which is a quite entertaining 18 holer with some very good holes. Even better is Littlehill which is a Braid course. Both courses are in "municipal" condition but in some ways all the better for it.


Niall

[Brian_Ewen]

Yep, best to enjoy them while you can.

[Marty Bonnar]

And now Letham Grange?
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/angus-mearns/971962/fresh-blow-for-golf-in-angus-and-tayside-as-acclaimed-club-to-close/

[Brian_Ewen]

And now Letham Grange?
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/angus-mearns/971962/fresh-blow-for-golf-in-angus-and-tayside-as-acclaimed-club-to-close/

To be honest, its a surprise it is still open.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Most of the closures will be because the golf has been allowed to be played too cheaply.


Golf at under £20 points to one thing>>>a golf course/facility with flaws.


It is very hard though when the one next door is allowing golf for £15. We live in a world where lowest prices wins. One will go to the toilet.


There was a laughable article in Golf Business News, the smiley chap manager of Huddersfield GC boasted his top 4 tips on how to sell a golf membership one of which was give them a courtesy round....B*$&llks*, If every club did that then Mr X who is moving house could get 20 free rounds before he chose!!! Some of these younger managers are absolute dippers...sadly its all about the money, the minimum wage has moved up 50% in about 4 years that races things to the toilet.

[Brian_Ewen]

Most of the closures will be because the golf has been allowed to be played too cheaply.

LOL


It's the exact opposite actually.


Nothing has killed off Scottish Golf more than sheer cost to play.