[Craig Disher]

You're really being ridiculous.   It's four hours each way from London to Western England.   And about an hour and a half to eastern England.     And this is over 7 days or so.    Not much different than an hour commute to work everyday.   

If you're considering Deal to be eastern England, please let us know how 1.5 hrs works out for you. I suspect you'll be spending a lot more time in your car than you think. It has to be over 100 miles most of which is on the M25.

[Ira Fishman]

I am not going to wade into the debate except to agree that if one asks for advice on here (which I do often), one should not take offense at advice which can be freely ignored. But Scott’s post transposing the itinerary on the US does raise an interesting question. Many of us would travel distances in GBI for golf that we would never consider in the US absent access to highly ranked but very private clubs. It seems as if the special nature of being overseas leads us Americans to embrace the travel. I did it sort of once—I thought the drive from Old Head to Killarney was ridiculous even though we had a tour operator. Then again that could have been a result of my views of Old Head as a golf course.


Ira

[John Mayhugh]

Jon,
Like others have pointed out, if you're going to ask for advice and criticism, you shouldn't be affronted when you get advice and criticism. It's really unclear to me what you were looking for from your original post. If it's "would you stay at a different Marriott from the one I selected?" better that you just ask that question.

I do think that the concerns about amount of time in a vehicle are overblown. I - perhaps more than most - can understand making a seemingly absurd trip to fit in more golf. The really useful advice is DO NOT TRUST GOOGLE MAPS DRIVING TIMES. So long as you have a reasonable buffer in your scheduling (maybe 50% more time), you should be ok.

You really should consider taking advice on where to stay unless the Marriott thing is non-negotiable.  Do you care about having places to eat/drink within walking distance of the hotel?

I thought back to the absurdity of my schedule on first visit to England:
Day 1 - Arrive LGW, drive to Pulborough, 18 holes, drive to Rye, stay at Dormy (2.5 hours driving)
Day 2 - Rye 36 holes, drive to Deal  (1 hour)
Day 3 - Drive from Deal to Swinley, 18 holes, drive back to Deal (4.5 hours driving)
Day 4 - Sandwich 36 holes
Day 5 - Deal 36 holesDay 6 - Deal 18 holes, sightseeing in Canterbury, stay in LGW area (2 hours driving)
Day 7 - Walton Heath 18 holes (1 hour driving)
Day 8 - return home
So that was 11+ hours of driving (and another guy did all of the driving). Chief regrets were only playing 18 at Swinley, but that was because we wanted to get back to Deal to meet up with GCA people. The schedule wasn't ideal with Swinley in the middle, but that was the only day to play it and I wouldn't have missed it.

Not sure that I "learned" a lot from that trip. I'm still willing to take a long drive if it means playing courses I want to. You should too. But you really ought to listen to advice that can help you (e.g. realistic travel times, stay in a better town, look for a more convenient base, move hotels one more time, etc). These have nothing to do with your golf preferences but all to do with making for a less stressful trip.

[Mark Pearce]

John M,


I'd say that the trip you just outlined could have involved half the driving Jon is looking at.  If the M6 is bad the day he does it, he could rack up 11 hours doing Lytham and back.  Twickenham to Deal, as Craig hints, could be as bad as 3 each way on a bad day.

[Tony_Muldoon]

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/uk-motorways-best-worst-traffic-m60-m25-a66-m40-speed-cameras-rubbish-a8466661.html


Worst
1 M25
2 M6




And although the article doesn't say it the worst part of the M25 is between the M40 and M3.

[JWinick]

I'm fine with getting people's opinions, but the overly critical tone that "we can't handle the driving" is ridiculous.    We are looking at about 14 hours or so of driving over 8 days - that's about an average person's commute to work back and forth.    None of us are certain we will ever golf in England again, so it made sense to see as many great courses as possible.    Most of our tee times are after the morning rush hour and I'm sure we will be fine.   

[Scott Warren]

JWinick,


All anyone in this thread has tried to do is ensure you have the best visit possible.


No one has suggested you “can’t handle” the driving, simply that several of the motorways you will encounter can be car parks at the best of times and may cause you to miss tee times.


The average drive is really irrelevant here, because it’s not 1h30 of driving per day that people are baulking at.


The drives from London to Lytham and Deal are not ideal. The choice of hotel location is not ideal. But you’ve got your reasons and it’s your trip.


Ultimately, your OP is kinda redundant because it’s clear you never wanted any advice or opinions. But the UK GCA contingent is so unfailingly helpful and welcoming and hospitable that I thought it was unfair for the thread to just die on you suggesting they were at fault here.


Have a great trip.

[Mark Pearce]

Not to bang on, but 14 hours driving is hopelessly optimistic.  Putting this trip into Google maps (and trusting Google maps to be accurate, which doesn't account for possible road works or other disruption) and taking roughly median times for the Google estimated journeys, I get over 20 hours driving.  The hotel in Southport (and, unlike Mark C, I don't mind Southport) is brilliantly located for Birkdale and Formby but is an hour from Lytham (and the Dormy House at Lytham is a great stay).  But the Twickenham hotel to Swinley is half an hour and all the other clubs are further than that.  Deal is a 5 hour round trip, according to Google.  Your trip is in early September.  The schools will just have gone back.  The M25 will be at its most miserable.  No-one has said you can't handle the driving but honestly, if you could just cut a bit of it out, wouldn't you enjoy the trip more?

[JWinick]

Not at all - the driving is on days where we are only playing 18 holes.   Again, to each his own.    We did like 18 hours over 5 days when we did Ireland and we had a blast.    I mean we are hearty guys that want to play as much golf as possible.   

[Mark Chaplin]

My point with Deal is the town is a nice place to spend an evening or two, there’s comfortable accommodations, decent restaurants and bars all 5 minutes for the golf course.


Each to their own but on a golf trip I’d prefer a decent night out to an upgrade I won’t fully appreciate . I save them for trips with Mrs C.

[Craig Disher]

I know this will be a great trip and you will enjoy all the courses you've selected. But following up on Mark's point and your desire to play as much golf as possible, I don't understand why you wouldn't drive to Deal, play 36, stay overnight in Deal, drive to Walton Heath, play 36 and then return to Twickenham.

[Kalen Braley]

Jwinick,

This thread feels like deja vu after reading about a similar trip you guys took to Ireland that I stumbled upon when I was researching info on Portrush prior to The Open.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63181.0.html

They look like awesome trips, so my hat's off... but when one asks for advice/thoughts/criticism, it usually means they want it.  However if you are looking for an argument or external validation, you could have just asked for those instead.   

[Jon Wiggett]

Not at all - the driving is on days where we are only playing 18 holes.   Again, to each his own.    We did like 18 hours over 5 days when we did Ireland and we had a blast.    I mean we are hearty guys that want to play as much golf as possible.   

Nuff said 

[JWinick]

Kalen,


So true - I"m bored with listening to people criticize the driving on our trips.   Its tiresome and irrelevant.    Tell me about the golf courses we missed or which ones we shouldn't waste our time, not constantly carp on the driving.   


Jon

Jwinick,

This thread feels like deja vu after reading about a similar trip you guys took to Ireland that I stumbled upon when I was researching info on Portrush prior to The Open.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63181.0.html

They look like awesome trips, so my hat's off... but when one asks for advice/thoughts/criticism, it usually means they want it.  However if you are looking for an argument or external validation, you could have just asked for those instead.   

[Tim Martin]

I’m surprised Marriott Titanium can’t set up the transportation piece!?

[Mark Pritchett]

I’m surprised Marriott Titanium can’t set up the transportation piece!?

You need to be an "Ambassador" for real juice.


J-


You have a great trip lined up, however it would be a shame to miss Silloth on Solway, St. Enodoc and Ganton so i would try hard to include them in your plans.  Maybe forgo the second round at Formby and get this done.  You can't go wrong either way!

[JWinick]

Craig,


Since we are only playing one course in the area (we bailed on Prince's to play Walton Heath), that would mean we would have to change hotels two more times with the same amount of driving.   I value limiting the number of hotel checkouts, which is only two on this trip.


Best,
Jon

I know this will be a great trip and you will enjoy all the courses you've selected. But following up on Mark's point and your desire to play as much golf as possible, I don't understand why you wouldn't drive to Deal, play 36, stay overnight in Deal, drive to Walton Heath, play 36 and then return to Twickenham.

[Adam Lawrence]

Jon


Just one thing for your trip down to Kent. There have been a lot of closures, some overnight, some weekend on the M20 and M2 recently. I think the M2 works are done, but the M20 stuff is still ongoing. Before you make your journey be sure to Google something like 'M20 Kent closures' to find out the latest updates. If the M20 is closed you will have to divert via A2/M2. There have been some nasty jams as a result of these works, but I think and hope the worst of it is over.

[JWinick]

Adam,


Very helpful, thanx.  Fortunately we are only playing 18 holes that day.


Best,
Jon

Jon


Just one thing for your trip down to Kent. There have been a lot of closures, some overnight, some weekend on the M20 and M2 recently. I think the M2 works are done, but the M20 stuff is still ongoing. Before you make your journey be sure to Google something like 'M20 Kent closures' to find out the latest updates. If the M20 is closed you will have to divert via A2/M2. There have been some nasty jams as a result of these works, but I think and hope the worst of it is over.

[Mark Pearce]

Kalen,


So true - I"m bored with listening to people criticize the driving on our trips.   Its tiresome and irrelevant.    Tell me about the golf courses we missed or which ones we shouldn't waste our time, not constantly carp on the driving.   


Jon

Jwinick,

This thread feels like deja vu after reading about a similar trip you guys took to Ireland that I stumbled upon when I was researching info on Portrush prior to The Open.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63181.0.html

They look like awesome trips, so my hat's off... but when one asks for advice/thoughts/criticism, it usually means they want it.  However if you are looking for an argument or external validation, you could have just asked for those instead.   

POssibly the most disingenuous post I have read on this site.  And I remember Tom Paul and Tom MacWood.  Congratulations.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I really have to wonder why this thread was begun!


Well experienced people have offered advice on your trip, which hits a lot of really great courses, but seems beyond crazy logistically. The traffic jams the M25, M20, and M1 can make LA traffic on a Sunday afternoon seem like a German Autobahn at 5am.  Until you experience the frustration of not moving for a couple of hours, you can only hope Google Maps works.  A couple of times I have experienced jams really close to Walton Heath, where I actually stepped out of my car and walked to the bushes to pee , and I was far from the minority doing so.  And if Google Maps routes you away from the M20, everyone else will be routed that way as well, and traffic lights and congestion will make you feel stuck in an NYC gridlock.
Finally, with good Marriot status, checking in and out is very easy.  There are quite a few Marriots that can ease the travel

[JWinick]

Care to make a wager?   Since our driving is "beyond crazy," I assume you would be comfortable with a wager then.   

I really have to wonder why this thread was begun!


Well experienced people have offered advice on your trip, which hits a lot of really great courses, but seems beyond crazy logistically. The traffic jams the M25, M20, and M1 can make LA traffic on a Sunday afternoon seem like a German Autobahn at 5am.  Until you experience the frustration of not moving for a couple of hours, you can only hope Google Maps works.  A couple of times I have experienced jams really close to Walton Heath, where I actually stepped out of my car and walked to the bushes to pee , and I was far from the minority doing so.  And if Google Maps routes you away from the M20, everyone else will be routed that way as well, and traffic lights and congestion will make you feel stuck in an NYC gridlock.
Finally, with good Marriot status, checking in and out is very easy.  There are quite a few Marriots that can ease the travel

[JWinick]

I asked for feedback on the golf courses.    I got very little feedback on the golf courses, just endless criticism from old guys about how much driving we were doing. 

Kalen,


So true - I"m bored with listening to people criticize the driving on our trips.   Its tiresome and irrelevant.    Tell me about the golf courses we missed or which ones we shouldn't waste our time, not constantly carp on the driving.   


Jon

Jwinick,

This thread feels like deja vu after reading about a similar trip you guys took to Ireland that I stumbled upon when I was researching info on Portrush prior to The Open.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63181.0.html

They look like awesome trips, so my hat's off... but when one asks for advice/thoughts/criticism, it usually means they want it.  However if you are looking for an argument or external validation, you could have just asked for those instead.   

POssibly the most disingenuous post I have read on this site.  And I remember Tom Paul and Tom MacWood.  Congratulations.

[BHoover]

I asked for feedback on the golf courses.    I got very little feedback on the golf courses, just endless criticism from old guys about how much driving we were doing. 

Actually, your original post asked for “Thoughts? Advice? Criticism?”. There was no qualifier asking for feedback solely on the courses you will be playing. It’s almost like you don’t actually want any criticism despite asking for it.

[John Mayhugh]

Jon,
I hope you have a great trip.

There's clearly been a disconnect between your expectations and what people thought you asked for. After reading through the thread again, one thing stands out: you do not appear to have had any flexibility at all with respect to where you are playing or staying or when. Given that, asking for "thoughts, advice, criticism" was unlikely to be productive.

Further confusing things was this:
the driving is on days where we are only playing 18 holes.   Again, to each his own.    We did like 18 hours over 5 days when we did Ireland and we had a blast.    I mean we are hearty guys that want to play as much golf as possible.   

Trust me, plenty of us "old guys" are also interested in playing as much golf as possible. I believe the difference is that you want to play as many top ranked or notable courses as possible, and that takes precedence over the amount of golf, resulting in more travel time. There's nothing wrong with that - it's your time and money - but surely you can see how reducing driving allows one to play more golf (but maybe not the most notable courses)?

I've done plenty of questionable drives to play courses that I want to see, so I can hardly be critical of that. I just fail to see how an extra round at Deal isn't worth changing hotels.

As for golf course feedback:
Lytham - haven't played
Formby - play the ladies course as well if possible - some terrific holes; staying on site would be memorable
Birkdale - haven't played
Sunningdale - haven't played
Swinley Forest - be sure to have lunch there; making a mistake not playing 36 (you'll understand when you've played it)
St. George's Hill - haven't played
Deal - you will be kicking yourself when you don't play 36
Walton Heath - have played Old only; great way to end trip

The wonderful thing about England - I've played 30ish courses there, and have yet to see Lytham, Birkdale, & Hoylake. Or Sunningdale, as noted. Yet it's still my favorite country for golf. There is so much more worth seeing there. And that's why people criticize windshield time - because of opportunity cost.

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