News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
 I enjoyed Bayonne but one small issue made me wonder about the limitations of these completely manufactured courses. I found there to be too many similar looking dunes in the back of many of the holes. It’s not that this was bad necessarily but in nature the designer likely would route the course through fewer similar looking backdrops. I also thought different looks and air flow would have enhanced the course. 


There also is a challenge to make interesting fairways when the ground is created rather than found. Manufactured fairways have a similar feel to me.


Where Bayonne shined for me was on the putting surfaces. They were interesting and quite large with nice undulations.




It’s an awful lot of money to spend on the making of a golf course since golf was intended to be just placed on the land.


I think about routing skill as taking what was there and plotting the way around. When nothing is there I wonder how different routing becomes. Bayonne has a tight beginning pinched by dunes and then an expansiveness that follows.




What manufactured course is great to you ?
AKA Mayday

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2019, 05:43:50 PM »
Mike, I wonder how expensive Bayonne was to build, given that he was paid for every load of sludge he took from the Hudson. I think routing must have been difficult. He had to build those dunes onto a barren piece of ground. I suspect he had a routing in mind when he built the dunescape. I think the routing shines there. He did not have a big footprint on which to build his course. The separation between holes depends on elevation rather than horizontal distance. I think it’s brilliant. Two other manufactured courses that obviously rate high that I enjoyed are Whistling Straights and the grandfather of them all, Shadow Creek.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2019, 05:57:37 PM »
Mike, I wonder how expensive Bayonne was to build, given that he was paid for every load of sludge he took from the Hudson. I think routing must have been difficult. He had to build those dunes onto a barren piece of ground. I suspect he had a routing in mind when he built the dunescape. I think the routing shines there. He did not have a big footprint on which to build his course. The separation between holes depends on elevation rather than horizontal distance. I think it’s brilliant. Two other manufactured courses that obviously rate high that I enjoyed are Whistling Straights and the grandfather of them all, Shadow Creek.


Knowing he that had some routing challenges makes the choices more understandable.
AKA Mayday

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2019, 06:40:59 PM »
Some ground level photos to aid in the discussion, taken in July of 2016:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Bayonne/index.html
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 07:18:30 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2019, 06:45:31 PM »
Supposedly, the reason why the dunes and the clubhouse are fairly elevated is because they made close $80 million taking the harbor dredge sand.  Liberty National would have made more sense economically, had they taken a similar amount of sand to cover the brownfield sandcapping. 
Wouldn't Lido and Indian Creek be considered manufactured golf courses?

Brock Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2019, 07:07:03 PM »
Chambers Bay is a good golf course. When they figure out the greens, it'll be great.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2019, 08:10:41 PM »
Supposedly, the reason why the dunes and the clubhouse are fairly elevated is because they made close $80 million taking the harbor dredge sand.  Liberty National would have made more sense economically, had they taken a similar amount of sand to cover the brownfield sandcapping. 
Wouldn't Lido and Indian Creek be considered manufactured golf courses?


I have been to Indian Creek and was amazed that it was built from scratch.
AKA Mayday

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2019, 09:37:02 AM »
 ;D 8)






Right in my wheelhouse here😎


Of course it can. Indian Creek is a great example, but of course I’m a Flynn aficionado.  It’s one of my favorite easy golf courses, so much fun!


Tommy makes a great point about the elevation changes that created the separation at Bayonne. Wonderful observation because without that use it would have been impossible to not feel cramped. I’m thinking 🤔 Flynn at Merion did that the best. Bergstol (Eric) did it really well, Bayonne has some great stuff.


Will be back!   


Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2019, 10:48:47 AM »
Calusa Pines is very manufactured and very, very nice.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Peter Pallotta

Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2019, 12:56:51 PM »
If you like a course & think it's a good one, do you guys mind that it's manufactured? Do you notice it, and/or does it affect your playing experience in any way? Do you 'downgrade' a course in any sense because it's manufactured?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2019, 01:19:41 PM »
If you like a course & think it's a good one, do you guys mind that it's manufactured? Do you notice it, and/or does it affect your playing experience in any way? Do you 'downgrade' a course in any sense because it's manufactured?

No. No. No.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2019, 03:29:41 PM »
If you like a course & think it's a good one, do you guys mind that it's manufactured? Do you notice it, and/or does it affect your playing experience in any way? Do you 'downgrade' a course in any sense because it's manufactured?


If it’s fun to play I don’t mind.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2019, 09:39:51 PM »
If you like a course & think it's a good one, do you guys mind that it's manufactured? Do you notice it, and/or does it affect your playing experience in any way? Do you 'downgrade' a course in any sense because it's manufactured?


If it’s fun to play I don’t mind.


The fairways tend to have a familiarity on manufactured courses. Natural courses don’t that feeling for me. I should say modern manufactured courses.
AKA Mayday

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2019, 07:15:57 AM »
 :D ;D


So glad Mayday opined here. In the case of Bayonne remember that Eric B was dealing with an unstable mix of material and I'm guessing a drainage plan that maintained all storm water on site. Obviously this challenge was incredibly difficult. Also he had to build up, to layer the golf course as Tommy W. so aptly pointed out. It's so much easier to remove material to create a natural look. 


This brings up another question. Would you rather walk the ground and "see" the holes in your mind or try to build eighteen that tie together from scratch. I'd pick the former.






Peter Pallotta

Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2019, 08:29:53 AM »
I’ve played about a half dozen courses (none of them well-known) that were largely manufactured. I suppose that, like Tim, I ‘don’t mind’ — but I can see & feel the difference, and it’s not the ideal for me. The truth is, I’d gladly trade-off some of the supposed ‘fun’ and ‘choices’ of these manufactured courses for a lengthy break from the architect’s constant ‘presence’, ie from an ever-present awareness of the architect’s ‘thinking’. By the 2nd hole such courses start to feel to me like a derivative paint-by-number movie instead of an original art-house film — every twist & turn clearly ‘signalled’, everything neatly in its (expected) place, including the ‘unexpected’. I come away wanting to remind architects that, like the rest of us, they actually aren’t all that ‘interesting’, and not quite as ‘clever’ as they’d like to think; like me and many others I know, they’d probably make a better impression by ‘saying’ less.  My favourite of the half dozen manufactured courses I’ve played is one that used to be a farmer’s cornfield, and that as a golf course looks and plays like it once was a farmer’s cornfield! Not coincidentally, it's the only one of the six where the green-to-tee walks aren't lengthy, lousy, or awkward (probably because the architect didn't fall victim to the 'rule' that says if you're going to manufacture the golf holes you'd better manufacture 18 really good ones).
 


« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 08:57:06 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Derek_Duncan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2019, 08:32:38 AM »
Chambers Bay is a good golf course. When they figure out the greens, it'll be great.


Brock, good call on Chambers. They do have the greens figured out.
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2019, 09:44:16 AM »
How can taking garbage dumps or otherwise neglected land and making it useable greenscape we call a golf course bad?  I don't think they need to be great courses either as I applaud the repurposing. Trinity Forest certainly comes to mind. 
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2019, 11:28:07 AM »
Does the same apply to Kingsbarns?  I've heard several criticize it in large part because it doesn't fit they eye when looking beyond its borders making it hard to maintain the illusion of it being natural.


P.S.  I thought CB was fantastic, regardless of the condition of the grass on its greens.  Anyone have any pics of the site pre-construction?

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2019, 02:20:41 PM »
Does the same apply to Kingsbarns?  I've heard several criticize it in large part because it doesn't fit they eye when looking beyond its borders making it hard to maintain the illusion of it being natural.


P.S.  I thought CB was fantastic, regardless of the condition of the grass on its greens.  Anyone have any pics of the site pre-construction?


Kalen,


What was the land of our beloved Wingpointe prior?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2019, 02:35:57 PM »
Does the same apply to Kingsbarns?  I've heard several criticize it in large part because it doesn't fit they eye when looking beyond its borders making it hard to maintain the illusion of it being natural.


P.S.  I thought CB was fantastic, regardless of the condition of the grass on its greens.  Anyone have any pics of the site pre-construction?

Kalen,

What was the land of our beloved Wingpointe prior?


Pretty much dead flat Mike, and it remained so for the most part other than low mounding between holes.  Now that its been closed for ~3 years, mother nature is actively reclaiming it.  You wouldn't know where any of the greens or tees were and some of the hole corridors unless you've played it before.


Still bummed it was one of the casualties, given the amount of otherwise mundane courses still open in Northern Utah...

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2019, 10:07:46 PM »
I’ve played about a half dozen courses (none of them well-known) that were largely manufactured. I suppose that, like Tim, I ‘don’t mind’ — but I can see & feel the difference, and it’s not the ideal for me. The truth is, I’d gladly trade-off some of the supposed ‘fun’ and ‘choices’ of these manufactured courses for a lengthy break from the architect’s constant ‘presence’, ie from an ever-present awareness of the architect’s ‘thinking’. By the 2nd hole such courses start to feel to me like a derivative paint-by-number movie instead of an original art-house film — every twist & turn clearly ‘signalled’, everything neatly in its (expected) place, including the ‘unexpected’. I come away wanting to remind architects that, like the rest of us, they actually aren’t all that ‘interesting’, and not quite as ‘clever’ as they’d like to think; like me and many others I know, they’d probably make a better impression by ‘saying’ less.  My favourite of the half dozen manufactured courses I’ve played is one that used to be a farmer’s cornfield, and that as a golf course looks and plays like it once was a farmer’s cornfield! Not coincidentally, it's the only one of the six where the green-to-tee walks aren't lengthy, lousy, or awkward (probably because the architect didn't fall victim to the 'rule' that says if you're going to manufacture the golf holes you'd better manufacture 18 really good ones).


I’m always afraid when they say “ a lot of thought went into this”.
AKA Mayday

Philip Caccamise

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2019, 10:22:52 PM »
Does the same apply to Kingsbarns?  I've heard several criticize it in large part because it doesn't fit they eye when looking beyond its borders making it hard to maintain the illusion of it being natural.


P.S.  I thought CB was fantastic, regardless of the condition of the grass on its greens.  Anyone have any pics of the site pre-construction?

Kalen,

What was the land of our beloved Wingpointe prior?


Pretty much dead flat Mike, and it remained so for the most part other than low mounding between holes.  Now that its been closed for ~3 years, mother nature is actively reclaiming it.  You wouldn't know where any of the greens or tees were and some of the hole corridors unless you've played it before.


Still bummed it was one of the casualties, given the amount of otherwise mundane courses still open in Northern Utah...


Good news... it's reopening.

https://kutv.com/news/local/restoration-plan-in-the-works-for-wingpointe-golf-course

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2019, 05:26:26 AM »
Whistling Straits was as flat as a billiards table in previous life as a military base. Some like it, some don’t. Whatever the opinion, it was a creative, bold, batshitcrazy, privately funded, WPA scale project.

Is it great? PGATour and European Tour think so. Wisconsin Tourism thinks (knows) it’s great as hell, a high net worth state fair.
Straits Reservations: “No ma’am, no tractor pull this weekend but please join us for our Ferrari Club Concours”
At this point few in Haven Wi care less what we think.  ;)
Regardless, it was impressive. Herb and Pete moved enough sand filled dump trucks to invent a tourism industry in a town previously known for foundries, sexy bathroom ads, water jets in the shower, and “hands free” toilets.

They also seeded a golf industry in a state religiously governed by cheese and Packers. Fun fact. At one time, it was illegal in Wisconsin to add yellow coloring to margarine... threat to butter industry. True story. I know. I’m from there. (Go Pack Go)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 05:54:46 AM by V_Halyard »
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2019, 10:31:48 AM »
 8)


Back to Bayonne.


Lots of really good holes here, green complexes exceptional as a whole. Methinks they made a good choice in that the holes that are a little cramped are right at the start. By the time you get a feel for the place it gets wider and more interesting.


Not that’s it’s necessary but the course ramps up as you go, with the back nine having more than a few special holes. Fourteen stands out as the wind can change it dramatically.


All in all a wonderful course but great is such a subjective word!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can a manufactured course be great? —-Bayonne is good faux
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2019, 11:22:51 AM »
Phillip,


Look at the date on that article.  I drive by it everyday and there is nothing going on out there...but it could still be in the planning stages.  It is private money, but I don't know how in the world $8 Million will work because there are so many other public golf options in Utah at dirt cheap prices...




Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back