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Brent Carlson

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Advice on England Golf Trip
« on: August 08, 2019, 10:53:24 PM »
All,


This fall I am traveling to play golf in England for the first time.  I look forward excitedly to experiencing the work of architects such as Colt, Fowler, Simpson, Campbell, Park Jr., Abercromby, etc.  This may be the only time I can play golf in England for the next 10 years, maybe ever.  The trip is pure golf, not touristy.  So far the itinerary includes a few links courses on the Southeast coast and some heathland courses west of London.  There are still three days with with flexibility.  My question is - with this being my only chance to experience golf in England for some time would you recommend playing additional excellent heathland courses around London, or venture a trip to a region a few hours drive away?  Some areas that appeal to me are the West (St. Enodoc, etc.), the East (Brancaster, Mildenhall), or up to the Lancashire coast.  All these areas would be doable with some driving.  My goal is to experience English golf, its golf culture and architecture.  Thank you kindly for your advice and knowledge.  I'm looking forward to excellent golf in England.


Brent

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2019, 11:30:46 PM »
Mark Rowlinson or Sean Arble might be able to advise you better. That said, you really can't go wrong with either staying in and around Surrey and Berkshire or taking the drive to Devon and Cornwall. It is a hike to get to the southwest or England or Wales. There are many places to play in the southeast that you might just want to stay there and not spend time driving. Where are you scheduled to play?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Scott Warren

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2019, 12:24:03 AM »
There's a lot of great golf courses in the south-east of England and I am sure you have many of those courses on your itinerary.


If someone were on the hunt for the soul of English golf, I would point them to Rye, Huntercombe, Woking and Walton Heath. If those courses aren't on your itinerary, I'd find a way to fit them into those three extra days.


Cornwall is a tourism and golf double act, but given the distance from London, it probably doesn't deliver the maximum possible bang-for-buck of a "golf only" traveller.


I also think there's a huge upside to playing some of those London heaths and south-east links multiple times to unlock some of the secrets -- perhaps your extra days are best spent getting a second or even third look at somewhere really special and developing a familiarity with it.

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2019, 12:49:47 AM »
Hunstanton, Brancaster and Royal Worlington & NM can be done in a couple of days.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 12:52:14 AM by Pete_Pittock »

Mark Pearce

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2019, 03:22:59 AM »
Depends on whether you want to see links or heathland golf.  If the former then the Lancashire coast has as much or more top offer as Kent.  If the latter, then Surrey/Berkshire is then obvious choice but Notts/Alwoodley/Moortown and Ganton also have a lot to offer.  Like Scotland, don't drive too much, take the time to enjoy lunch at these places and a drink after your game.  There's enough good golf in these areas that you really don't need to over do the driving time.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean_A

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2019, 03:29:19 AM »
Brent

Its tough to beat a few heathland courses, southeastern links and ride up to the Sacred 9, Brancaster and Hunstanton.  If you want something a bit more wild, head to the West Country if you think there is enough time, but honestly, that is really a separate trip with so much to see.  You could also go rogue and slip in Painswick, Minch Old and Huntercombe....which would be what I would suggest if its a strong variety of architecture you searching.  In any case, you are always welcome to have a game at Burnham is our diaries match.

I wouldn't suggest heading up to Lancashire...its a long way for more golf akin to the southeastern links...and as a whole not as good imo. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Thomas Dai

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2019, 04:41:34 AM »

How comfortable are you with the idea of driving in busy suburban/metropolitan traffic "on the wrong side of the road", driving, if for some reason you can't hire an auto, a 'stick-shift'? This is key prior to deciding where to play and where to stay.
atb









Pete Lavallee

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2019, 06:56:45 AM »
Brent,


I’ve done several golf trips as my wife is English. We haven’t done the southeast yet. The courses around London that should be included are:


The Addington, bold design
Working, golf fine tuned over a long period
Walton Heath, great 36 hole day
West Sussex at Pullbourough, classic architecture, gotta love the doggy dishes at the bottom of the drinking fountains.
Royal Ashdown Forest, uniquely bunkerless golf very close to Gatwick Airport


Lancashire is a long drive for a 3 day add on, however:


Royal Lytham St. Anne’s, best stay and play at the Dormie House, full English breakfast and 3 course dinner included


Royal Birkdale, I wasn’t impressed but some golfers like the fact that it plays through the dunes not over them, they do provide a great day out though


Formby, great club great course, try the Ladies Course and see if you can go low!


Delemare Forest, superb architecture by Fowler in a secluded location, best sausage rolls in England


Cavendish, the MacKenzie stamp is all over this course, it’s on the way to Lancashire, Buxton is a fun town


However, for a 3 day add on I would drive to Painswick, then follow on to St. Enodoc and Perrenporth, you get crazy and then two unique links courses.


Should be a great trip!














« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 07:01:26 AM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Craig Disher

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2019, 08:44:06 AM »
Brent,You haven't said how many days you are spending overall in England. If you've already established your travels around London and the SE coast and a chief goal is to experience the golf architecture and culture, i'd suggest taking your three extra days and spending them at clubs you're already planning to visit. Spend an extra day at Rye, Sunningdale, Walton Heath or wherever you've made arrangements. Contact the Secretary and inquire about playing in a club competition or playing with a member. Clubs often have a weekly event that you can be invited to join if you plan ahead. Meeting the members and enjoying lunch or a drink with them in the clubhouse after a round is the best way to create a lasting memory. I think driving to a distant location like Cornwall would be a mistake. If you're unlucky, the trip can take 6 hours or more. St. Enodoc and Perranporth are wonderful courses to play but getting there would use a lot of your precious time.

Paul Dolton

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2019, 09:20:36 AM »
To save some traveling time you could try Hampshire.
Hayling Island is a good links .
Inland you have several choices including Liphook , Blackmoor, and Hindhead.

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2019, 09:41:11 AM »
Very sound advice offered by all. Just another thought, if you want to go west, try South Wales, Royal Porthcawl, Pennard and Southerndown in particular.

Stewart Abramson

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2019, 12:24:30 PM »
Don't worry about the driving. After a day it becomes fairly natural. Some of my favorite golf days have been 36 hole days in the Surrey/Berks heathlands. There are so many quality courses with short distance between them. Some are expensive but others won't break the bank, although like many courses across the UK visitor green fees have been rising, even among some of the leser known courses. If you are looking for bang for the buck courses in England, I seem to recall that Sean A has a list posted somewhere on GCA and I've found his suggestions to be good.


Favorites in Alpha order: The Addington, Berkshire Blue and Red, Hankley Common, New Zealand, St George's Hill, Sunningdale Old & New, Walton Heath New and Old, West Hill, Woking, Worplesdon.... I feel like a kid in a candy shop when in that area. I usually stay away from the City and find cool little places in Surrey for accommodations


https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/collections/72157632028368729/

Brent Carlson

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2019, 01:21:24 PM »
Thank you all for the excellent recommendations.


@Tommy: Thank you for the advice.  My itinerary is still being finalized over the next couple weeks, but the courses I would like to experience are (links): Deal, Royal St. Georges, Rye; (heathland): St. Georges Hill, Sunningdale, Swinley Forest, Walton Heath, Addington. There are also additional heathland courses such as Woking, Pulborough, Royal Ashdown Forest, Worplesdon among others that interest me.  Keep in mind I understand that many of these clubs are very private and they have no obligation to offer a visitor a round, so these are the courses I would like to see.  What's impressive is the sheer quantity of quality heathland courses around London, and I assume they all have their own unique character.  I am leaning towards staying in the Southeast and hopefully making another trip someday.


@Scott: Thank you for the recommendation of Rye, Huntercombe, Woking and Walton Heath.  Huntercombe looks especially interesting.  I have played some Willie Park, Jr. courses in the US and they were all good.  You make a good point to experience more heathland, and play multiple rounds.  That style of golf interests me as it is not available in the western US.


@Pete: Thanks for the information Pete.  It's good to hear from you.  Have fun on your upcoming trip to Cabot.


@Mark: Thank you for the advice.  I really do want to see heathland golf.  We simply don't have that style in the states.  In the past I have played links in Scotland and Ireland.  The golf was amazing but you do raise a good point - driving too much detracts from the overall experience.  I will heed your advice regarding lunch and experiencing the club.  Thank you


@Sean: Thank you for the advice.  I think you are right on the West Country.  It will have to be another trip in the future (have to make time for it).  Thank you for the more than generous offer of a game at Burnham.  From reading your writeup this Colt design is a must play when in the West.  I look forward to taking you up on that someday.  Per your advice I will stay away from the Lancashire links on this trip.  BTW I think the Wings are finally looking up again with the Yzerman hire.   ;)


@Thomas: Great point.  On our trip to Ireland it was white knuckles driving a stick on the left side of the narrow roads!  I hope there are more automatics for hire this time.  Per the replies I am leaning on staying around London/Southeast.  Thank you


@Pete: Thanks for all the great information Pete.  All the courses you mentioned look great.  I am leaning toward staying around London at this point and experiencing as much heathland as possible.  I hope the King's Putter is doing well in your possession.  I am more local to you now so maybe we can put together a GCA outing in the near future.  Thank you again for the advice. 


@Craig: I will have nine full days available for golf.  Unusual for me this is more of a fly by the seat of your pants trip.  I'll be finalizing courses over the next couple weeks.  Your idea to spend more time at clubs is what I would like to do.  If possible to play with a member/local that would afford the opportunity to learn more about the history / architecture / nuance of the club.  I would very much like that and mention it on the secretary letters.  After all the recommendations against it I am probably not going to Cornwall.  Time is better spent at the club than in the car. 


@Paul: Thank you kindly for the recommendation Paul.  Liphook looks great and is on my list.  I will research Hampshire, Blackmoor and Hindhead.


@Mark: Thank you for the advice on courses in the West.


@Stewart: Thank you for the advice.  I am leaning toward doing exactly what you described.  Those courses all look interesting.


Another thought - are there any overseas memberships that would make sense for a trip like this?  It probably doesn't unless you can get across the pond more often.  If so please PM me.

Thanks again.  Brent
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 01:52:35 PM by Brent Carlson »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2019, 01:35:07 PM »
(EDIT: Written before I saw Brent’s response above)


So many suggestions that they don’t really amount to anything. So I’ll add fuel:


- Spend one day per club (whether 36 or 18). A 36 hole day with lunch in the middle really soaks in the atmosphere much more than rushing elsewhere at lunchtime


- Make sure you pick courses for reasons of variety. Quite a few of the Surrey heathlands can run in to a lesser whole than the sum of their parts if played consecutively. So choose Woking for its greens, West Sussex for its serenity and bunkering, Walton Heath for its genuine open feel (and 36 holes), Sunningdale for its class (and 36 holes) and Royal Ashdown Forest for its lack of bunkers. Throw in a nine at Reigate


- Then spend good time at Sandwich and Deal. Ditto Rye.


- And if you have time for that three day jaunt then Brancaster, Hunstanton and Worlington is your man


Loads of variety without too much travel. Pick three to five nice villages to stay in. Small guest houses / boutique hotels and find the best pub for dinner.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 01:37:16 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2019, 01:43:12 PM »
Ok, nine days:


Day 1 - Deal
Day 2 - Sandwich
Day 3 - Rye
Day 4 - Pulborough
Day 5 - Walton Heath
Day 6 - Woking
Day 7 - Sunningdale
Day 8 - Worlington & Hunstanton
Day 9 - Brancaster




Brent Carlson

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2019, 01:57:15 PM »
Ok, nine days:


Day 1 - Deal
Day 2 - Sandwich
Day 3 - Rye
Day 4 - Pulborough
Day 5 - Walton Heath
Day 6 - Woking
Day 7 - Sunningdale
Day 8 - Worlington & Hunstanton
Day 9 - Brancaster


Ally,


Thank you for the advice.  Your recommended itinerary looks excellent, and gives a nice breadth of English golf.  Your recommendation of what to look for on the various heathland courses is much appreciated - that is exactly what I'm looking for. 


Best,


Brent 

David_Tepper

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2019, 02:01:42 PM »
Be sure to play both courses at Sunningdale. The New is very good.

The Red & Blue at the Berkshire are also a very nice 36-hole day in case you can't get on elsewhere.

Ira Fishman

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2019, 02:21:55 PM »
The others are much more experienced, but I heartily concur with the recommendation to put Woking on your list, especially given your clear interest in golf course architecture history.  My wife thought I was a blabbering idiot when we played number 4.  As Ally notes, the greens and green sitings are superb. Plus the whole experience is low key but classy with a beer on the patio a must do.


Ira

Peter Pallotta

Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2019, 02:47:06 PM »
All the best for a great trip, Brent.
A brief aside:
While I’ve read the phrase before, Scott W’s reference to ‘the soul of English golf’ really struck me this time.
I thought: what could possibly be better than to seek out ‘the soul of [fill in the blank] golf’?
That would be a good thread one day, ie name the course(s) that represent the soul of [fill in the blank] golf, eg
Texas
The Southwest
Michigan
The Northeast
Chicago
Ireland
The Mid Atlantic etc


« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 02:50:36 PM by Peter Pallotta »

BHoover

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2019, 02:58:13 PM »
I am headed to London in a month for work. I won’t have much free time, but I’m planning to build in an extra day or two to play golf. My question is how difficult is it to get to Woking, Worplesdon, West Hill, and/or potentially Walton Heath without renting a car?

David_Tepper

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2019, 03:03:07 PM »
BHoover -

Not sure about the courses you mentioned, but you can take a train from Waterloo station, London to Sunningdale station and walk to the 1st tee at Sunny Old or New in a matter of minutes.

https://www.thetrainline.com/train-times/london-to-sunningdale


DT
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 03:05:12 PM by David_Tepper »

Stewart Abramson

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2019, 04:30:28 PM »
Train from Waterloo Station to Woking is about 30 minutes. Cab from Woking train station to the golf club is about 10 minutes

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2019, 04:46:06 PM »
I am headed to London in a month for work. I won’t have much free time, but I’m planning to build in an extra day or two to play golf. My question is how difficult is it to get to Woking, Worplesdon, West Hill, and/or potentially Walton Heath without renting a car?
All of the courses you listed can be reached via train/taxi combo. Use Google maps to research your route. It will show train beginning and ending points... you can research ticket prices on the Trainline or UK Rail websites from there. Then use the Uber app to see what the charge would be from the station to the golf club. Not many places in England can't be reached via train and Uber/taxi.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Garland Bayley

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2019, 01:10:20 AM »
Ok, nine days:


Day 1 - Deal
Day 2 - Sandwich
Day 3 - Rye
Day 4 - Pulborough
Day 5 - Walton Heath
Day 6 - Woking
Day 7 - Sunningdale
Day 8 - Worlington & Hunstanton
Day 9 - Brancaster


Ally,


Thank you for the advice.  Your recommended itinerary looks excellent, and gives a nice breadth of English golf.  Your recommendation of what to look for on the various heathland courses is much appreciated - that is exactly what I'm looking for. 


Best,


Brent

Does this mean you are not going to the west country and settle the Pennard vs. Perranporth question once and for all?

PS Can I come along and bring Kalen?

;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Advice on England Golf Trip
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2019, 02:06:20 PM »
For West Hill and Worplesdon take the train to Brookwood, it’s a 10 minute walk to West Hill and short cab to Worplesdon.


Don’t spend too much time on letters to secretary’s most of the courses can be booked online. You’ll need to call Royal St Georges as there is only one day in September with visitor times available.


The only clubs I know where visitors can play competitions are usually high end clubs to club with some sort of relationship already in place.
Cave Nil Vino

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