In praise of firm and fast

[Ted Sturges]

Firm and fast conditions are too rare in the states in my opinion.  For that reason, I wanted to start a thread to praise those clubs who are presenting their courses firm and fast these days.  For me, in the last year, the three courses I have visited that were presented firm and fast were:


Yeamans Hall Club (I'm a member there, and they have always been one of the firmest courses in the US in my eyes)
Mountain Lake  (visited there for the first time in February, and was so impressed with the firm conditions!)
Shoreacres  (was there two weeks ago and it was PERFECT!...heading back there on Sunday and can't wait to play it again)


I'm hoping that by heaping praise on the clubs presenting courses firm and fast that maybe those who miss the mark will take steps to correct this.  What other clubs have you played this year that are presenting their courses firm and fast?


TS

[Kyle Harris]

Everybody complains about the weather. Nobody does a thing about it.

[Jim Tang]

Ted -


I completely agree with Shoreacres as I was there last August and thought so highly of the turf.  It was just a perfect playing surface and made for an amazing day.  Easily the best turf I saw in 2018.


I thoroughly enjoyed Chechessee Creek Club in March and the ground game was very much available.


A trip to the Pinehurst area in early June was awesome with No. 2, Pine Needles and Mid Pines all playing wonderfully.


Don't sleep on The South Course at Arcadia Bluffs.  Played one round in mid-July.  Firm, all sorts of roll and a ton of fun to play.


For me, Old Town Club is the clear winner this year.  I was very fortunate to play two rounds there in early June and those rounds stick with me more than any other from 2019. The course was in mint condition, challenging but fair and flat out exciting.

[Tom_Doak]

Don't sleep on The South Course at Arcadia Bluffs.  Played one round in mid-July.  Firm, all sorts of roll and a ton of fun to play.

The Loop started out EXTREMELY firm - and it's still firm, but it's inevitable that new courses soften a bit after a couple of years as some thatch starts to build up underneath.  And that's a good thing, to a point:  they wouldn't survive heavy traffic without some cushion.

[Adam Clayman]

Bayside; Brule, Nebraska.


Amazing what attention to detail will do. Their new superintendent has tweaked down run times on their sprinkler heads. Cutting them in some cases 75%, saving thousand$. Not to mention millions of gallons.


The real benefit is that the course comes alive with bounces and rolls. Endearing the sportsmen, while pissing off the game minder. A win win.

[JESII]

In the Mid-Atlantic region, I'd put Scott Anderson's performance at Huntingdon Valley over the last 30 years up against any other course in terms of the number of good firm and fast days.


Played in the Philadelphia Open there a couple weeks ago and it was absolutely as good as a course can be presented. We'd had consistent rain for a couple months of early summer then he had about a week of no rain or very little and the ball was bouncing over the flagstick. Drive it in the rough (which was about an inch and a half high) and you had to hit a very good shot to get it on the green.


The most impressive thing about Scott's work is how quickly the course GETS BACK to firm after a rain.


Great stuff!

[Lou_Duran]

Everybody complains about the weather. Nobody does a thing about it.

Please elaborate.

[John Cowden]

Ballyneal!

[ward peyronnin]

Congaree is in marvelous condition and firm and fast but unlimited bucks are very useful.
On the other end of the scale Mike Young's The Fields course in SE Alabama is a hoot. They hardly water at all and get by on well under $500K; maybe under $400. Just a fun golf course and solid design.

[Chris Mavros]

Two that immediately came to mind for me have been mentioned; Congaree and H. Valley. 


Some others I have played recently :


Skokie CC
Rolling Green
Fox Chapel
Skyway Links
Rolling Hills CC
LedgeRock (my club)


I'm not sure I agree that firm and fast is rare or few and far between in the U.S.  Many courses are now striving for it much more than in the past at least. 

[Peter Pallotta]

Especially on a golf course with elevation changes/sloping fairways and contoured greens, I find that F&F makes the game much more challenging for me — but in just the right way. My shotmaking and scores are worse but the interest and intrigue are greater. But I can see, and in fact have seen, how (some) longer hitters get bugged by F&F, and how (some) semi-low handicappers with delusions of grandeur — fed by playing too much lush, target, land-and-stop golf courses — get easily frustrated with those conditions. A few years ago I did too: I felt so rarely rewarded after what felt like a (rare) good shot. A few years from now, God willing, I might be one of those deluded semi-low handicappers who will get frustrated by F&F. But right now I’m right in the pocket!

[Conley Hurst]

Alotian strives to maintain firm and fast playing conditions, and they do a darn good job given the climate.


Winged Foot plays as F&F as any course I've played in the Northeast US.


But these pale in comparison to the sheer bounciness of the finest links and heathland conditions in the UK. I've yet to encounter turf in the US that truly matches the overall quality of good, slightly burnt-out fescue on a British links.

[Ted Sturges]

Quote from Tom Doak:

"The Loop started out EXTREMELY firm - and it's still firm, but it's inevitable that new courses soften a bit after a couple of years as some thatch starts to build up underneath.  And that's a good thing, to a point:  they wouldn't survive heavy traffic without some cushion."



Tom,   Is Lost Dunes still soft and wet (it's been several years since I've been there)?  I was always frustrated playing there seeing my tee shots plug.  If that place was ever presented firm and fast it would be so much fun to play!  I imagine as the architect who designed it, having the course too soft and robbing the golfer of the nuances that could be, it must be even more frustrating to you.


TS

[Ted Sturges]

Quote from Chris Mavros:

"I'm not sure I agree that firm and fast is rare or few and far between in the U.S.  Many courses are now striving for it much more than in the past at least."






I'm not seeing this, but I'm encouraged by your comment.  Maybe I'm not playing enough of the good ones...


TS

[Rob Rigg]

100% Agree - Wish we saw a lot more F&F especially in the summer.
Bandon is always reliable for F&F along with Ballyneal. Oh, to be built on sand.
Most of the courses in Bend, OR that I've played are pretty F&F, especially Tetherow which is fescue.
If I recall - Shenny near New London, CT also played pretty F&F, at least during the summer. With a little money for improvements that course would be amazing.

Played Astoria last week which is only 1/2 mile from the coast and wish it was F&F, would be so much more enjoyable.
Also played two courses in the PDX area this week that were water logged - The Reserve South and Forest Hills. YUCK. Plugged drives and huge pitch marks on the greens because the super has been flooding the course to maintain that green during the lovely warm PNW summers.
Massive thanks to any superintendents around the US that have courses playing F&F all year round, especially when the climate can make it challenging. So FUN to watch the ball traveling across the ground and being able to play linksy running shots.

[Tim Martin]

100% Agree - Wish we saw a lot more F&F especially in the summer.
Bandon is always reliable for F&F along with Ballyneal. Oh, to be built on sand.
Most of the courses in Bend, OR that I've played are pretty F&F, especially Tetherow which is fescue.
If I recall - Shenny near New London, CT also played pretty F&F, at least during the summer. With a little money for improvements that course would be amazing.

Played Astoria last week which is only 1/2 mile from the coast and wish it was F&F, would be so much more enjoyable.
Also played two courses in the PDX area this week that were water logged - The Reserve South and Forest Hills. YUCK. Plugged drives and huge pitch marks on the greens because the super has been flooding the course to maintain that green during the lovely warm PNW summers.
Massive thanks to any superintendents around the US that have courses playing F&F all year round, especially when the climate can make it challenging. So FUN to watch the ball traveling across the ground and being able to play linksy running shots.

+1 on Shennecossett

[Ted Sturges]

I want to add Camargo and Old Elm (Chicago) to the list of firm and fast golf courses.  Played Camargo on Friday, then headed to Chicago Saturday morning and played Old Elm (how is it that I've never visited this gem before!) that afternoon, and Shoreacres again yesterday morning.  All are presented well, with Shoreacres topping the list (most firm and fast) followed by Old Elm and then Camargo.


While playing our round at Shoreacres yesterday, and looking at the brown tones in the fairways which our group was loudly praising, I asked one of the caddies, "Do the members really get golf here?...do they like these brown tones in the fairway, or do some of them complain it is not green enough?"   The caddie replied, "The members love it...they would complain if this place got too green and soft...they know this is how the game was meant to be played."


My question then is:      How does a club go about educating their membership that soft, emerald green fairways may photograph well, but they don't play right?  How does a club teach their members the benefits of firm and fast (better playing conditions and cheaper maintenance) and get them to have disdain for soft, green conditions?


TS

[PCCraig]

While playing our round at Shoreacres yesterday, and looking at the brown tones in the fairways which our group was loudly praising, I asked one of the caddies, "Do the members really get golf here?...do they like these brown tones in the fairway, or do some of them complain it is not green enough?"   The caddie replied, "The members love it...they would complain if this place got too green and soft...they know this is how the game was meant to be played."

Ted -

I was down at Shoreacres a couple of weeks ago for their M/G. Not to speak for their membership but the caddie you spoke to was spot on. Back when I first started playing SA somewhat regularly in ~2000 the golf course was obviously great, however Brian Palmer deserves a lot of credit for improving the turf quality drastically and making the course play as it intended. The course really comes alive the firmer and faster it gets! Add in a little wind and it's a real treat.

Chicago was early in the "restoration" game with clubs like Skokie and Beverly undertaking major restorations almost 20 years ago to restore classic features. The area was then ahead on tree management, and now it seems the area is ahead of the rest of the country in F&F management.

Superintendents at clubs like Chicago GC are training assistants who are getting head jobs at other clubs in town and transforming the turf there.

Yes, the golf IQ in Chicago is very high.

Here in Minnesota, there are glimpses of clubs who are committed to F&F. Chris at Hazeltine has done a terrific job firming that course up. Bill Larson at T&C has it playing very firm and fast thanks to the fast-draining land (similar to Shoreacres with its ravines but the Mississippi in place of the lake). Northland in Duluth is another one which allows dry weather to fully bake out their fairways. When we have a dry summer those are some of the firmest and fastest fairways in the country.

It seems most of the initial hang up to courses playing F&F is members getting over the mental hurdle of seeing some brown in the turf, and not just wall to wall green. Even though most folks in Minnesota will say the Fall is their favorite time to play because "that's when the ball bounces the most." 

[CJames]

California Golf Club of San Francisco. 

[Pete_Pittock]

100% Agree - Wish we saw a lot more F&F especially in the summer.
Bandon is always reliable for F&F along with Ballyneal. Oh, to be built on sand.
Most of the courses in Bend, OR that I've played are pretty F&F, especially Tetherow which is fescue.
If I recall - Shenny near New London, CT also played pretty F&F, at least during the summer. With a little money for improvements that course would be amazing.

Played Astoria last week which is only 1/2 mile from the coast and wish it was F&F, would be so much more enjoyable.
Also played two courses in the PDX area this week that were water logged - The Reserve South and Forest Hills. YUCK. Plugged drives and huge pitch marks on the greens because the super has been flooding the course to maintain that green during the lovely warm PNW summers.
Massive thanks to any superintendents around the US that have courses playing F&F all year round, especially when the climate can make it challenging. So FUN to watch the ball traveling across the ground and being able to play linksy running shots.

    Must have caught it on an aberrant day. I haven't experienced plugged balls or large ballmarks on the greensat The Reserve since I started playing again in May. While they don't have it as firm and fast as I would like, it doesn't rise to what you describe on a daily basis. Granted there are a couple of wet areas near cart paths and the 8th hole landing area. Maybe you caught it on the rebound after the Member-Guest or on Sunday after last Saturday had nearly 1" of rain, which is about what it gets in July and August combined. Should have played Gearhart rather than Astoria.
    And the greenskeepers aren't the fall guys, since The Reserve Vineyards is privately held.

[Paul Rudovsky]

a few points--


1.  add Newport CC...no sprinklers in fairways helps!


2.  agree both w Ted's comment that we are far behind GB&I in this regard (and would also say far behind Melbourne Sandbelt)...as well as Chris' comment about progress in USA over last few years (but we have  along way to go)


3.  also would add that Firm/fast has the additional attribute of making the game easier for average players and harder for low handicappers

[Ted Sturges]

a few points--


1.  add Newport CC...no sprinklers in fairways helps!


2.  agree both w Ted's comment that we are far behind GB&I in this regard (and would also say far behind Melbourne Sandbelt)...as well as Chris' comment about progress in USA over last few years (but we have  along way to go)


3.  also would add that Firm/fast has the additional attribute of making the game easier for average players and harder for low handicappers

Spot on with point #3!

[Jeff Schley]

I was at shoreacres a week ago myself and the members are savy about their course and how it plays. My member also knew almost exactly what had taken place at SA restoration wise since I played there 20 years previously.  He was a walking encyclopedia of what took place.  They are passionate about their place in GCA and the Chicago area golf scene.


I was just as Chicago Golf 2 days before and can say it was playing faster than SA, particularly the greens IMO, however SA was fast as well. Very wet spring here in the Midwest.

[John Kavanaugh]

The line between passionate and insecure can be quite thin.

[Terry Lavin]

The best aspect of the Shoreacres transformation has been the rather thoughtful, deliberate and patient process that they went through. As I understand it, Tom Doak came up with a plan that involved tree removal, widening fairways, bunker construction and removal of rough grass in between greens and the surrounds. A handful of back tees were also added. Over the course of four years or so, the course has become more visually arresting, more fun and more difficult. The firm and fast maintenance has added a lot of intrigue and difficulty around the greens. And the golf course is now so much more inspiring on each tee because the tree removal has exposed the beautiful landforms that were sort of minimized before. It’s an amazing piece of land and now one can see it all.