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Tom_Doak

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2019, 01:54:12 PM »
Sven — Housing and golf took root after WWII. The examples prior to WWII are outliers.

Interesting distinction...In some examples, St. Andrews as one, "housing" came along both during and after. The golf was an attraction ultimately, and the reason today that the edges of St. Andrews' courses are so densely populated by dwellings AND hotels. The examples of "housing by design" mixed with golf, took off in the 1950s.


Forrest:  I've worked on a lot of outliers:


Bel Air
Crystal Downs
Oyster Harbors
Pasatiempo
Shoreacres
Yeamans Hall


Most of these had Olmsted Brothers draw up the development plan, which they had a lot of experience with; they were even involved at Augusta, in the beginning.


However you are right to the degree that there were not huge home development companies and retirement home communities churning out projects with 300 houses and a golf course, until the post-war years.

Kalen Braley

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2019, 02:17:54 PM »
Curious about this weeks PGATour venue, Looks like its a good example of set back housing.  Says it was built by Donald Ross and opened in 26.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2019, 02:26:53 PM »

However you are right to the degree that there were not huge home development companies and retirement home communities churning out projects with 300 houses and a golf course, until the post-war years.


There were, at least on the home development side.  There are countless examples of them.  Go look up B. E. Taylor and what he was doing outside Detroit.


The idea of planned communities with golf courses as a feature predates WWII by a long run.  If you really want to dive in, there's a great book on the subject called Paradise Planned by Robert Stern.


For the most part, what changed between 1925 and 1955 was the opulence.





« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 08:10:33 AM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Greg Hohman

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2019, 04:34:04 PM »
Attractive landscaping offsets unremarkable domestic architecture. Ugly fencing is pervasive at the inexpensive SoCal courses where I play. The visuals can vary widely from property to property and by extension from hole to hole.

To Forrest’s point about the power of the game beyond itself: I have posted in a different thread that I get a kick out of several Coachella Valley places whose courses and homes are not covered by glossy media, GCA media included. Some are retro Palm Springs without the pretentiousness. At more recent developments, many backyards don’t draw a “red line” between homeowner and golfer (e.g., no fence). In both settings, the pleasure of golf can be increased further by a smile, a wave, a chat.
 
At Palm Desert's Suncrest, unsung across architectural fields, I was nonplussed recently by two mannequins on patios at different holes. (Suncrest has nine holes.) Were the home owners in cahoots? I don’t know, but I did appreciate the humor, though the one of a little girl reminded me uncomfortably of some horror flick or other from my youth.
 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 04:56:52 PM by Greg Hohman »
newmonumentsgc.com

MCirba

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2019, 08:18:56 PM »
Merion East.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2019, 09:38:35 PM »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sean_A

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2019, 02:46:41 AM »
Merion East.

Was Merion a planned golf housing estate?

Sven

Is the BE Taylor development in Detroit you reference Warren Valley? It seems to me this was quite an ambitious project to be centered around modest homes. I get the impression the development never took off as hoped. Did the Depression dampen the project? If this is the development in mind, the local city, Dearborn Heights, recently purchased the two courses from Wayne Co, I think for some crazy cheap price of well under 3 million.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 04:27:11 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Mark Chaplin

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2019, 04:00:57 AM »
St Andrews isn’t “lined with houses” to suggest so is ridiculous. One side of one hole has properties alongside and 4 of those properties are clubhouses.
Cave Nil Vino

BCrosby

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2019, 07:44:01 AM »
East Lake, Druid Hills, Capital City (Brookhaven) and Ansley, are all golf courses in Atlanta that started life as residential real estate developments before World War I.


Bob

ward peyronnin

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2019, 10:43:15 AM »
Ira
After I read the first post on this thread and before scrolling down Hope Valley was my first though; feels as if one is playing on an estate.
Funny proximity story i was playing with a big ol bomber of the ball ; naturally a bit erratic, when he hoisted one way off to the right toward some backyards. OB of course but no barrier so he hopped out to meekly retrieve his ball and spied a resident laying spread eagled on his back patio unconscious. As he ran to discover the victims condition said vic popped up with a big grin ball in hand and the club pro's lesson fixture. Hilarious.
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2019, 11:05:10 AM »

Ward,


Similar story, playing Dye's Stonebridge Ranch near Dallas, my client was having a horrible day, hitting water several times.  The 18th was a traditional Dye Cape Hole Finisher, water on left, and he said he would bet me that he didn't find water on the tee shot.  Aimed way right, hit it OB and into a neighboring pool.  Since the wording was "find water" I maintained he lost the bet.....and he ended up buying lunch after a few laughs.


Back on topic, using some of the worlds best courses as examples of how to do "housing" is a bit off the mark.  What's forgotten after WWII was that developers were trying to bring the country club to the masses (or at least growing middle class) and had to somehow off load the enormous (although we would laugh at what courses cost to build then now) up front costs.  Housing did that, and also solved golf's biggest distance problem - distance from front door to first tee.  It was in many ways a laudable effort with acceptable compromises.


So, yes, these courses weren't quite as good as courses purpose built for a pure members clubs, but in those days, probably everything done (in many design fields) was a pretty poor rip off of any classic designs for similar reasons.


As to the gentle debate between Forrest and Tom D, I would say that developers and land planners gradually got more efficient at land planning to create premium golf (and water, green space, etc.) lots.  Also, the land plan reflects the times. Many early 1900's land plans had a road bordering the golf course, with lots outside, fronts facing the golf course.  That reflected the old "front porch" style of living where that's where you interacted with neighbors.  Later, people retreated to more privacy of their back yards, and land planning reflected this, putting golf out back.


It would be an interesting grad student study to track all the housing/golf developments to see when and where certain trends started.  Again, I would bet that the second notion of golf course/housing used the "squished frog" layout style (or core course with fingers) and no road crossings.  Later, double fw configurations with road crossings, then single fw configurations with many road crossings, and probably the "ultimate" configuration was not only road crossings every or every other hole, but also long walks between housing also allowed, as opposed to a direct line of sight crossing.  Of course, I am generalizing.


But, I do recall when working for Killian and Nugent routing some of those and they had strict rules of no more than two road crossings per nine, and direct line of site crossings so at least the course felt connected (this being 1977-83)  And, when I played my first RTJ course (Hilldale in Hoffman Estates, IL) I was non-plussed that an accomplished architect like that broke all the KN rules for housing courses.  Of course, he had done so many for developers (and maybe even that developer) that he had been beaten down enough just to accept their wishes.


Would also note that developers seem to have varied in their demands on architects, with many accepting of some limitations even though it reduced golf lots, and others forcing you to separate golf holes and squeeze corridors at every turn.  On one of my last housing designs (2006, and poorly time and now out of biz) I presented the developer with core, double loop and single loop options, and he (and his land  planner) adamantly refused a single loop configuration, because by that time, people were realized the effect of the worst of the housing courses tendencies and they felt giving up a few lots was quite reasonable in the name of community quality.  (For instance, the line of sight golf crossings are also an opportunity for everyone driving through the community to view the course and know its a golf community, thus raising even off golf lots value.


Again, I think it would make an excellent study to track the different thought patterns on golf course development projects.


And, back to the original question by Forrest, IMHO, if the space between fw and houses is adequate, there is some landscaping, and architectural quality of the houses is good, I don't think playing in such a course is unpleasant at all.  Who doesn't like to gawk at houses larger and fancier than theirs?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2019, 11:12:40 AM »
Curious about this weeks PGATour venue, Looks like its a good example of set back housing.  Says it was built by Donald Ross and opened in 26.


Sedgefield is a great course and the houses don't intrude on play at all (Tommy Williamson mentioned it earlier in this thread). I'm from Greensboro and play it several times a year whenever I'm at my parents' for a holiday or just a visit (my dad has been a member for 30+ years). In fact, I never really understood the complaints about houses on golf courses for a while because I was used to Sedgefield where the houses weren't an issue. Now that I live in Atlanta and the majority of courses are compromised by housing (as well as playing a lot in the Myrtle Beach/Grand Strand area where I actively avoid most of the courses with housing issues), it's much easier to see the problem.


Sedgefield could have a potential issue on the second hole in the future, though. 10-15 years ago there was far more room on the right side than there is now -- OB stakes were moved in 20 or so yards closer because someone bought a lot there, and now they're building a house that will likely be right in your field of vision on the tee shot. It's a shame.

Matt MacIver

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2019, 06:59:47 AM »
I’d guess nearly every major Eastern city with a Donald Ross has a course or two where golf and housing presently co-exist (Shaker Heights in CLE; MPCC and CCC in CLT; Raleigh CC; Oakland Hills?) etc. 


Part of the problem as we know is technology has brought those houses closer to the course.  OB is still pretty far away when I play my hickories. 

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2019, 12:46:07 PM »
Forrest,


At the other end of the spectrum, the courses of Discovery Land Co are a far cry from my courses in an " active adult" residential community, two of which are located in our state of Arizona- Estancia and Mirabel.

https://discoverylandco.com/#communities


What's your opinion of the courses of these developments?
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bruce Katona

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2019, 10:14:47 AM »
Good discussion.  Given my background as an LA and land planner; its nice to see others opinions of mixing golf and housing.


I would contend that the combination can be properly done, since opening view-sheds onto open space (golf) can offer view premiums to folks living on the opposite side of the street from the course.


BK

Paul Jones

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2019, 10:24:57 AM »
Old Tabby Links is a great example of homes fitting in with the land and not obstructing the golf course.  A member did tell me that they removed quite a few lots behind greens to keep the homes out sight when looking at the hole.  If I hit the lottery, I would invest in a home on Spring Island.
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Ira Fishman

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2019, 10:31:09 AM »
Ira
After I read the first post on this thread and before scrolling down Hope Valley was my first though; feels as if one is playing on an estate.
Funny proximity story i was playing with a big ol bomber of the ball ; naturally a bit erratic, when he hoisted one way off to the right toward some backyards. OB of course but no barrier so he hopped out to meekly retrieve his ball and spied a resident laying spread eagled on his back patio unconscious. As he ran to discover the victims condition said vic popped up with a big grin ball in hand and the club pro's lesson fixture. Hilarious.


Ward, great story.  Next time we are there, I will remember to ask the Pro about it.


Ira

Edward Glidewell

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2019, 03:41:37 PM »
Old Tabby Links is a great example of homes fitting in with the land and not obstructing the golf course.  A member did tell me that they removed quite a few lots behind greens to keep the homes out sight when looking at the hole.  If I hit the lottery, I would invest in a home on Spring Island.


I really enjoyed my round at Old Tabby Links, but I'm not sure it's a great example because Spring Island exists for multimillionaires. I don't think it was ever intended as a real estate development to sell as many lots as possible around a golf course, unlike most real estate courses.

Forrest Richardson

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2019, 09:57:42 PM »
Great discussion!

Steve — I think the Discovery Land work is not much different in terms of intent, but the execution far outpaces and out performs the "typical" residential play project. Steroids. What Mike Meldman has been able to create are amazing experiences. In 80% of the courses he creates, he manages great routings and residential plans. Every so often he inherits a property, and those are the exception.

I think I need to go on record here in saying that my intent was to stimulate a discussion on the philosophical implications of people ACTUALLY LIVING AMONG GOLF COURSES and having the game continually present out their back door. Isn't that a wonderful opportunity? And, don't we fail miserably as an "industry" (I detest that definition) to harvest this opportunity? I feel there is a movement here — and golf, as a whole, doesn't realize it. We have millions of people living on the playing board of the game — yet we fail often to embrace them and involve them.

I would really like to know what percentage of people who live on a golf course, or in a golf course community, play and embrace the game.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 10:02:59 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2019, 11:33:34 PM »
Forrest,


I live in a residential golf community but not on  a golf course lot. Our Golf Committee, of which I was a member of for 5 years, undertook a study of residents who live on a golf course lot and play golf here. We found that 1/3 of golf lot owners played golf.


I guesstimate that the % would be higher at  more prestigious communities with courses designed by the big named architects.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2019, 01:40:07 PM »

Steve/Forrest,


I have seen a few industry studies suggesting the same 33% number of actual golfers living on any particular course.  It may vary.


I have worked for a developers who added "big names" like Freddy Couples.  In their research, they found that 1) Women end up making the final decision more often than not, and 2) Women loved Freddy Couples. 


Your assumption about who buys where seems logical, but may not really hold true!


Forrest,


I think I loosely attempted to answer your question in my first response.  Yes, what a wonderful idea it is/was for a lot of reasons.  And basically, from Merion back in the day to a modern company like Discovery that also adds amenities on top of amenities to make communities livable, the quality of golf lies with how much that developer is willing to compromise on maximum lots to attain some more livability, in the form of golf course views from around the community, or safety corridors between houses and golf (add up 25 extra feet over 7000 yards and it adds up to abut 12 acres and perhaps 24-48 lots) which is several million dollars to "give up" or assess over the cost of the actual remaining golf course lots and others.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Schott

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2019, 09:12:56 PM »
I’d guess nearly every major Eastern city with a Donald Ross has a course or two where golf and housing presently co-exist (Shaker Heights in CLE; MPCC and CCC in CLT; Raleigh CC; Oakland Hills?) etc. 


Part of the problem as we know is technology has brought those houses closer to the course.  OB is still pretty far away when I play my hickories.


Glad you added the ? to Oakland Hills. There are houses on the south boundary of the back 9 (behind 17 and along side 15 but they don't come close to being in play. There's also a corner of Maple and Lahser Roads has a cul-de-sac that are near I believe the 3rd and 4th holes but once again aren't in play in any way. Not sure about the North Course but the homes would again be on the perimeter.

David_Tepper

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2019, 10:02:16 PM »
Anyone familiar with Riverhill in Kerrville, TX?

http://riverhillcc.com/

Or Pauma Valley, north of San Diego?

https://www.paumavalleycc.com/
 

Bart Bradley

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2019, 06:28:38 PM »
Of my clubs, only Grandfather has housing.  It does a nice job of limiting the impact of the residential development on the golf. 


Bart

corey miller

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Re: An Amazing Gesture: Living On a Golf Course
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2019, 03:18:06 PM »



Not sure the age of some of the homes but Farmington in VA seems to be particularly well done.  A fine golf course and homes surrounding the course sell at a giant premium for that market.

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