Portush to Replace Lytham and/or Muirfield?

[David_Tepper]

It might or might not happen:
https://www.scotsman.com/sport/golf/martin-dempster-portrush-success-signals-danger-to-muirfield-and-lytham-1-4969299

[Adam Lawrence]

It won't.

[Ally Mcintosh]

In the long run, the first to be dropped (if there is one to be dropped) must surely be Turnberry. The Duel in the Sun is one thing that saves it though.


Will there be an Open outside GB&NI? There’s been a lot of momentum behind Portmarnock if they choose to accept Lady members.

[Jeff Schley]

In the long run, the first to be dropped (if there is one to be dropped) must surely be Turnberry. The Duel in the Sun is one thing that saves it though.


Will there be an Open outside GB&NI? There’s been a lot of momentum behind Portmarnock if they choose to accept Lady members.

Why do you say this Ally?  Lack of infrastructure?  I loved Turnberry when I was there, pre Trump.  I have heard it has only improved.

[Mark Chaplin]

Turnberry is the least successful venue for revenues.


The Open is only played in Great Britain, if Scotland becomes independent then several venues will fall off the rota.

[Matthew Rose]

I don't think the rota will change, but at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if some courses began to have longer gaps between gigs than others.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Turnberry is the least successful venue for revenues.


The Open is only played in Great Britain, if Scotland becomes independent then several venues will fall off the rota.

Pardon my abruptness but this is a ridiculous statement, Mark.


Far from what you are saying there, word on the grapevine is that the R&A are considering that it might be worth taking outside the UK. This could be wishful thinking on the part of the people talking about it though, even though some have strong R&A connections.


Let me ask you, which venues do you expect to fall off the rota if Scotland becomes independent: The Scottish ones or the English ones?

[Adrian_Stiff]

None will drop off. Portrush for 2024 and 2029 is likely, so there will be bigger gaps for a while for the Scottish ones if St A stays on a 5 year sequence. RSG is a big favourite.

[Tom_Doak]

Articles like this are really just gossipy b.s.


There isn't an official "rota" of courses at all.  Some get the call less often than others, for all sorts of reasons (political, financial, and perhaps even petty).  Doing a deal with Portrush for two more Opens in fairly quick succession means that other courses will take more of a back seat the next ten years, but thst doesn't mean they will never host The Open again. 


Any such article is pure speculation since the last thing the R & A would do, if they did decide not to go back to Muirfield, is to announce such a decision officially.

[Sean_A]

I agree with Tom.  Besides, Muirfield just broke with a few years of tradition to remain in the "rota" and spent some cash altering the clubhouse in doing so.  If anything, I would think the R&A is looking to expand the "rota". 

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Let me ask a question for anyone that knows:


Why did the R&A do a deal with Portrush to host three in quick succession? Why three (why not I guess?) but particularly why in quick succession? Have they done a deal like this before?

[Richard Fisher]

Yes, especially in cases where significant infrastructural investment has been required of a national or local governmental regime to render the venue viable: The Senior Open and Wales is a course in point.

The discussion on Open venues is emphatically not just a conversation between the R&A and the host club, although I had always understood from friends involved that it was precisely the lack of a largescale host club at Turnberry, and thus a committed volunteer force, that made its regular inclusion on the Open rota problematic (even prior to the Trump acquisition). This problem doesn't apply to the same extent at other 'public' venues like Carnoustie or indeed TOC the itself, although Carnoustie's very sporadic usage historically (1931, 1953, 1975, 1999 in the last century) did suggest that there were indeed significant local logistic challenges, certainly until recently.

[Ally Mcintosh]

You’re missing ‘37 and ‘68 in there for Carnoustie, Richard. It was after the 1975 Open that it had a break for infrastructure/ accommodation concerns.


Was the Portrush deal part of a softener for the significant course changes they were asked to implement? Seems likely part of it.

[Jeff Johnston]

My understanding (just from following the media) is that the expectation was three Opens for Portrush by around 2040, including the one just gone - so the fairly usual once every 10 years or so for host venues other than the Old Course. I guess this gives everyone some comfort on amortising / seeing a return on the upfront spend - R&A, RPGC, local government - and is also a softener to the club in making the course changes as you say Ally. Three in an 11 year spell would be remarkable - but if big crowds are king (as Slumbers seems to be suggesting) then who knows.

Surely a bit daft to suggest Muirfield might be dropped, not least in light of HCEG following the R&A's prompting on admitting female members. Per above they'd want to get the vote out though the next time.

Ally, as someone who knows, what would you think about access at Portmarnock? I imagine there is plenty of space within the grounds to take the infrastructure but the single road through the one gate would be on my mind.

[Thomas Dai]

Golf organisations and their committees and the egos, vanities, vested interests that inhabit them work in mysterious ways. And that's before outside influences, politics and other egos, vanities and vested interests get involved. And as the personalities change, so does direction.
atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

Jeff, that seems much more reasonable about three Opens at Portrush by 2040. I just couldn’t fathom what made it so special that they were talking about one every five years even before last weekend.


Not sure on how big a problem that access issue for Portmarnock would be. I wonder how many people turned up at previous Irish Opens? Do other courses not have similar single access issues?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Let me ask a question for anyone that knows:


Why did the R&A do a deal with Portrush to host three in quick succession? Why three (why not I guess?) but particularly why in quick succession? Have they done a deal like this before?

A lot of £££ has gone into the area with the deal. All the local shops were given £5000 to tidy up their shop fronts. As you know Northern Ireland is quite poor in relative terms to the rest of the UK and to Ireland, as soon as you cross that line the price of the black stuff doubles!


I am also thinking that the three quickies were so the great Irish names will still be around and competitive.


The R & A will love the massive crowds and the support all I have heard is 10/10 comments. As far as I know the Open's for 2024-2027 are still not in alignment yet, St Andrews may go to the 2026/2031 on the basis every 10 years it represents the 150th-160th etc. When I mentioned Turnberry there was a pause and the subject changed.


They least favoured going to Lytham since the late 80s. A certain BBC commentator told me it would never go there again after Seve's second, mainly because of infrastructure, but they seem to have managed and the Open village has grown lots since too. Hoylake coming back more regularly will probably mean Lytham going into category 3 for an open every 15-20 years, there is an English spot for the 25 or 26 Open, Birkdale or Lytham I suppose. That area is going to get an Open every 5 years with 3 courses on the rota.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Let me ask a question for anyone that knows:


Why did the R&A do a deal with Portrush to host three in quick succession? Why three (why not I guess?) but particularly why in quick succession? Have they done a deal like this before?

Perhaps they just want to get their moneys worth while Northern Ireland is still part of the UK...

[Richard Fisher]

Ally - many apologies for my schoolboy error, forgetting both Cotton and Player!


The other big issue, in terms of Open hosting, and one which perhaps matters more within the UK than it seems to do externally, is balancing the demands of western Scotland, eastern Scotland, northern England, southern England etc etc.

[Padraig Dooley]

There is some chatter that Portmarnock is being considered as an Open venue.

[Jeff Johnston]

Ally, I am likely over-thinking it re access at Portmarnock - that said, I can't think that any of the current rota courses are as strongly peninsula-based. If it comes to it though, no doubt a deal could be reached for a level of access via Portmarnock Links as well if need be. All in the realms of speculation obviously!

[Niall C]

The R&A is in a rather envious position in that with the number of quality candidates that would like the Open it has more than enough options that some may take a while to get their chance. I doubt any will be publicly disowned (other than single sex clubs) but I can't see Turnberry getting it while Trump or his family have involvement but I doubt you will catch the R&A saying that.


As for attendances, Portrush was the first all ticket affair and Slumbers was quoted earlier in the year that the R&A intend to make the Open all ticket from now on. Once that gets better known wait to you see the scramble every year to get a ticket. By the time it gets back to Turnberry/Muirfield or where ever, sell outs will be routine.


Mark - curious comment regarding Scottish independence. If they had to choose one side of the border or the other, why would the R&A head south given their Scottish history ?


Niall

[Adam Lawrence]

The R&A is in a rather envious position in that with the number of quality candidates that would like the Open it has more than enough options that some may take a while to get their chance. I doubt any will be publicly disowned (other than single sex clubs) but I can't see Turnberry getting it while Trump or his family have involvement but I doubt you will catch the R&A saying that.


As for attendances, Portrush was the first all ticket affair and Slumbers was quoted earlier in the year that the R&A intend to make the Open all ticket from now on. Once that gets better known wait to you see the scramble every year to get a ticket. By the time it gets back to Turnberry/Muirfield or where ever, sell outs will be routine.


Mark - curious comment regarding Scottish independence. If they had to choose one side of the border or the other, why would the R&A head south given their Scottish history ?

Niall

Chappers is just doing some Tory trolling, let him be 

[Matthew Rose]

It seems like there is precedent for giving multiples to venues that haven't been used in awhile. Would that explain why RSG got two so close to each other? (1981, 1985)

[Jeff Johnston]

Interesting point Matthew on RStG in 81 and 85 - I'd forgotten that one, and they got it again in 93. In another example Hoylake also seems to be well up the pecking order following its return to the rota.