Another Bloody Clayton Article

[Mark_F]

This time on short par fours, with the unarguable contention Australia has the best collection of sub-300 holes in the world.
https://www.golfaustralia.com.au/feature/course-design-short-fours-527633?fbclid=IwAR2I5oJZhyR3Pyz6CN5Fjv-3dPTnYbXWL3O-pLs5xXHv00ypeLYA_ocf-yg

[Mark Pearce]

Errrr....


The article itself states that the contention is arguable.  Some great holes listed there, but the UK has some pretty good sub-330 yard par 4s too.  Starting with a couple on TOC.

[Jeff Schley]

links sub 300 are realistic to drive, some of the down under suggestions are not nearly as realistic IMO.
The 14th at NSW is #1 intimidating as all hell. #2 wind dependent. #3 takes balls, but fun if you aren't in a match
The 10th at RMW is a great hole if you can draw the driver, really was fun to watch one of my opponents take a crack and end up in the bunker.
The 14th at Lost Farm is fun and very pretty with the ocean backdrop.  It is such a tight green with bunkers all around you definitely need a fade there as long straight is dead.  Actually I like hole #2(330) and hole #3 (260) which are back to back short par 4's equally as much. Playing downhill adds to the beauty of the 14th and probably why it stands out.
The 13th at The Lakes is a diabolical green which is has runoff on all sides. When I played it the pin was in the front point and looked like a long par 3.  It would be very tough to actually hold that green with that much runoff on all sides.  The perk is you can putt around the green short and left.

[Peter Pallotta]

And another very well written article -- thanks.
I'd not thought of this before, though the thought itself is quite obvious:
A golf hole like the 12th at St. Andrews isn't static -- it doesn't exist there as a 'great golf hole' in-and-of-itself, ie independent of a specific golfer, on a given day, actually playing it. It wouldn't be a 'signature hole' anywhere -- indeed, that's the point: it comes from a time when even the concept of a signature hole (whether because it photographed well or even because it was a 'great design') was unheard of, if not absurd.
I've never played anywhere, but from reading Mike's article it's interesting how, even fairly early on, the 'architecture' of a golf hole like the 12th, in the mind and hands of a Dr Mac, began to transmute -- to become more conscious and formalized.
Now, some 100 years after the Australian courses, it's become completely conscious & formalized  -- and so the modern architects' magic trick is to somehow manage to make it look/feel/play as if it's not.

Peter

[John Kavanaugh]

I had always believed and observed Australians to be a modest people. The "Tall poppy syndrome" so to speak.

[Mark_F]

Errrr....


The article itself states that the contention is arguable.  Some great holes listed there, but the UK has some pretty good sub-330 yard par 4s too.  Starting with a couple on TOC.

Errr....
It was my contention that the preposition was unarguable.  Mike merely thinks it's arguable.     But then, he thinks Pen North 6 is a better hole than 12 South, so what would he know.

I've played maybe 60 courses in the UK, and the only ones off the top of my head I can think of are 3 and 11 on Sunny Old.

[Mark Pearce]

Errrr....


The article itself states that the contention is arguable.  Some great holes listed there, but the UK has some pretty good sub-330 yard par 4s too.  Starting with a couple on TOC.

Errr....
It was my contention that the preposition was unarguable.  Mike merely thinks it's arguable.     But then, he thinks Pen North 6 is a better hole than 12 South, so what would he know.

I've played maybe 60 courses in the UK, and the only ones off the top of my head I can think of are 3 and 11 on Sunny Old.

I assume that you haven't played 10 and 12 at TOC?


8 at Brancepeth Castle is a brilliant example.  6 and 10 at Elie.  4 at Woking?  There's a really good one at Kingsbarns but I can't remember the number.  18 at Kington.  Others can chip in.


That said, I wouldn't disagree with Mike on those that I played when down there.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark


12 South is better than 6 North? 12 is more dependent on having the pin in the interesting places  - no matter where it is on 6 it's an interesting pitch.


Mark  (Pearce) Of those British holes I've only played Woking 4 - which obviously is a brilliant hole. But.. it's longer than the type of holes I was writing about -  all of which are reachable except NSW 14.
That hole and Woking 4 play the same in terms of the usual length of the second shot - but none of the other Australian holes do unless you play short off the tee - and sometimes that is a legitimate option. Victoria 15 for example.

[Ronald Montesano]

Some good ones at Lahinch, you fockers. Or, are we not including Eireann?

[Mark Pearce]

Mike,


I was at Woking a few weeks ago.  4 for me was a driver and a flick with a sand wedge from the yellow tees.  If it's that for me, my son could drive it.  If he could drive it from there, real golfers could drive it from the whites.  Tragic, I know.

[Mark Pearce]

BTW, Mike, you should play Elie.  I think you'd love it.

[Pat Burke]

One of my favorites fwiw was always 3 at Kingston Heath
So simple on the face of it, but with a little of the “standard” breezes it takes some thought to be able to get the ball
In a nice position on the green


Maybe not great to some, but I always loved the way it got me to set up my approaches

[Duncan Cheslett]

The 12th on TOC is currently my favourite hole on the planet. On my first visit a couple of weeks ago I birdied it!


Having said that, if my birdie putt on the 17th had dropped instead of lipping out that would be my favourite. As it was I got a five...

[Mark_F]

I assume that you haven't played 10 and 12 at TOC?

I have indeed Mark, but if you are going to count the 10th hole on TOC, you also need to add the centre wicket at Lords. 

I had thought of the 13th at Pulborough, but it's longer than I remembered, ditto Ganton's 3rd hole.  Maybe the 10th or 11th at Swinley?

Mark

12 South is better than 6 North? 12 is more dependent on having the pin in the interesting places  - no matter where it is on 6 it's an interesting pitch.

Mike,
South 12 is surely a difficult green to hit and hold even if the pin is at the front?  It's a concave surface there, and all too easy to go right through, even in summer.  I think the interest of the pitch into 6 North is overshadowed by it's difficulty - no one apart from low markers is going to be comfortable with that lie to a green two clubs above them. 

There are obviously a couple of flat areas to hit from, but they are hard to find, especially on the right. The 6th green also feels quite intimidating now - I reckon South 12 invites you to attempt what you know might be wrong.  It lulls you in more.  And the area behind the green - a sadly neglected area on many golf courses, as MM wrote so poetically all those years ago -  is first class.

[Mike_Clayton]

Mark


I haven't found 12 to the front pin isn't that hard - maybe we need to play it soon and check - but I hope they use the pin far right a decent amount because it really rewards the drive far to the left. And you're right - the over the green architecture there works really well. The long guys need to be careful they don't scoot through into the bunker 20 yards over the green. It's a good example of a bunker that far over a green having a real purpose.


Pat,


3 at KH is one of the best holes ever made on a piece of land giving up nothing obviously interesting - flat, straight, 300 yards long.


Mark,


It's on my list.

[Ira Fishman]

Nairn 15 is very good as is Golspie 7.

Swinley Forest has both 3 and 11.


North Berwick 18.


Kilspindie has a bunch. 6 and 12 stand out.


Ira

[Mark_F]

I haven't found 12 to the front pin isn't that hard - maybe we need to play it soon and check - but I hope they use the pin far right a decent amount because it really rewards the drive far to the left.

They do seem to have found more interesting pin positions lately Mike, but some of them are head scratchers.  I've still yet to see back left on 14 South, and the far right pin on 12 is an unusual occurrence. They had one on 4 South the last time I played it that must have been six inches from the ridge that drops down into the right hand part of the green, and I have seen quite a few on other holes that are similar.

For mere mortals, 12 South has some seemingly innocuous fairway ripples that can affect a pitch to any pin.  Even if you are more near the centre of the fairway, you are coming over the edge of the greenside bunkers, with another set left, to a green that falls away sharply in front, and a little less so to the rear. 

I reckon it's a hole that appeals to all levels of players moreso than 6 North.

[Sean_A]

Yes, if there ever was an argument to be made against very short 4s TOC's 10th is it.

One of the best, if not the best vs4s I have
seen is the 4th at St Enodoc. Pennard's 7th is right up there as well.

Tell you what, the 5th at Alnmouth Village is very special as well.

Cavendish 3, Painswick 4, Kilspindie 17, Deal 6, Formby Ladies 1, Church Stretton 8, Cruden Bay 3, Burnham Channel 9 and Stoneham 13 are more crackers.

Ciao