The importance of land choice -- a stunning contrast this weekend

[Jason Topp]

The European tour is playing on one of golf's most beautiful and naturally interesting settings at Lahinch.  I have watched five shots so far and each one was interesting because of the lie, the club choice or some other factor.


By contrast, the PGA tour is playing at a perfect setting for logistics - nearly dead flat but with plenty of room for parking, a great practice facility and very good infrastructure for hosting an event..  The event will be a terrific experience for spectators and players because the tournament director, Hollis Cavner, has great talent for creating a compelling experience for spectators and players.  The golf course, however, is essentially a Florida golf course that is dead flat, features an abundance of housing and some ponds to create strategic interest. 


From a purely golf course architecture standpoint, the contrast this weekend will be about as stark as it is possible to see.  It will be interesting to see whether the difference in quality of golf course overcomes the other advantages created for a PGA Tour event.  I will be interested in the impressions of the treehouse of both events.


And - happy 4th of July!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Jason, I played TPC the year it opened so it has been a long time. I don't remember it being "dead flat." It wasn't very hilly but I seem to remember some movement in the terrain.

[Mike Sweeney]

Lehman did some work at TPC Twin Cities:


https://www.pgatour.com/tour-insider/2019/07/03/tpc-twin-cities-3m-open-host-first-pga-tour-event-toughen-up-course.html


I loved Lahinch last month, and it was a windy day. I would love to see the pros play a windy day, where we had to factor in the wind on putts. That said, they were fabulous greens and I am intrigued to see how they play.

[Ken Cotner]

I thought I remembered a shared fairway on the back 9 at Lahinch (14/15 or 15/16 maybe). Not seeing it on TV - did it go away or am I just remembering it wrong?

[Kalen Braley]

Says its on Golf Channel all 4 days here in the states.  I'll tune in tomorrow morning as I got the day off anyways.

Its certainly a bucket list course for me...

[Ally Mcintosh]

I thought I remembered a shared fairway on the back 9 at Lahinch (14/15 or 15/16 maybe). Not seeing it on TV - did it go away or am I just remembering it wrong?

It was 14 & 15. Was removed with the Hawtree renovations.

[Peter Pallotta]

Which is better at creating a compelling field of play for an outdoor game - Nature (with an assist from the Hand of Man) or the Hand of Man (with Nature seemingly an impediment rather than a partner)? The former has done very well indeed for well over a century; the latter's successes still seem relatively few and far between. But of course, the Tour doesn't (and maybe even shouldn't) care a whit about that.

[Ira Fishman]

The Irish Open is an eye opening example of TV moderating the elevation changes. Lahinch still is compellingly stunning. But now I actually do want to see ANGC in person.


Ira

[Lou_Duran]

We played Lahinch hours after arriving in Shannon a few years back on what was probably an average weather day in the summer.  My companion, a decent golfer with a deceptively keen short game, proceeded to lose over 30 balls and started mumbling below his breath that retirement from the game was indicated.  Needless to say, this was an auspicious beginning to a long trek through Ireland where we experienced more rain and wind through 12 days than I had over many, many years.


I enjoy Lahinch.  In better conditions- course, weather, and personal- I might be even able to post a decent score.  And if I didn't know parkland courses such as the one JT chose to offer as a contrast, perhaps I would look down derisively at this genre.  But I play a large variety of courses in different geographies and help officiate competitions of mostly high levels of skill, and only on this site would there be a decided preference for the Lahinches of the world over the TPCs of MN.  And that's OK, golf is a Big World (God, do I miss Tom Paul!).


No doubt that site selection is important.  But perhaps staying within the practical and possible is more meaningful in the analysis.  E.g. tying into the current thread on Trump Balmedie, could/would Lahinch be built today?  Maybe some of the classics we revere are so highly esteemed because they are forbidden fruit.  I don't know how much of the dune was cleared to the left to create the driving area of Cypress Point's #8, or whether the famous #16 could be sited on the promontory.  #4-10, 17, 18 at Pebble Beach?  Different times, different possibilities.  I have thought that the Links at Spanish Bay gets a bad rap because it is compared to PB though what could be done at the latter from a political/regulatory standpoint was light years more permissive.


Me, I argue that today's hand of man, given the many limitations placed upon it, does just fine.  The art and science of gca and construction are at a high historical point, IMO.  The availability of great buildable sites near large population centers and the astronomical opportunity costs limit greatly the ability for these highly capable men to shine.  IMO2, Mother Nature without a bit of help is highly overrated.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I expected Lahinch to be sporty little course full of quirk. I had herd of Klondyke and Dell, but I was totally unprepared for the quality golf that Lahinch presents the player. I was also a bit unprepared for the first tee. It felt as though I tee off in the pro shop. What a joy.

[Ira Fishman]

I expected Lahinch to be sporty little course full of quirk. I had herd of Klondyke and Dell, but I was totally unprepared for the quality golf that Lahinch presents the player. I was also a bit unprepared for the first tee. It felt as though I tee off in the pro shop. What a joy.

Not only do you practically tee off in the Pro Shop, but it has to be one of the most unassuming Pro Shops of any top course in the world.


Ira

[Sean_A]

Me, I argue that today's hand of man, given the many limitations placed upon it, does just fine.  The art and science of gca and construction are at a high historical point, IMO.  The availability of great buildable sites near large population centers and the astronomical opportunity costs limit greatly the ability for these highly capable men to shine.  IMO2, Mother Nature without a bit of help is highly overrated.

Sweet Lou

This is a reasonable PoV.  The thing is, there are very few nature without a bit of help courses which even register in conversations because they are very rare animals.  I am petty sure I have yet to see one and I look for them!

Ciao

[Jason Topp]

But I play a large variety of courses in different geographies and help officiate competitions of mostly high levels of skill, and only on this site would there be a decided preference for the Lahinches of the world over the TPCs of MN.  And that's OK, golf is a Big World (God, do I miss Tom Paul!).

Lou - I am pretty sure our group of 24 would have been unanimous in favor of Lahinch. It was not a GCA crowd. 

[Jason Topp]

Jason, I played TPC the year it opened so it has been a long time. I don't remember it being "dead flat." It wasn't very hilly but I seem to remember some movement in the terrain.

Tommy


I know the surrounding land is pretty much dead flat.  I assumed any elevation change was artificial.

[Garland Bayley]

...  I have thought that the Links at Spanish Bay gets a bad rap because it is compared to PB though what could be done at the latter from a political/regulatory standpoint was light years more permissive.
...

Are you sure that is the reason? I have read on this website that Spanish Bay falls short, because the best land was used for the hotel and surrounds. From that it seems capitalism, not regulation, prevented it from measuring up.

Admittedly I have never been there so can only report what I have read here.

[Jim Lipstate]

I had the privilege to play Lahinch last September and was impressed by the the sheer size of the dunescape. One must be in good shape to scale the dunes which are just massive. Even though television seems to flatten the views of links courses I think Lahinch still looks on TV much as I remembered.


I have fond memories of my day at Lahinch which included an eagle on the short 13th as my 80 yard pitch from an awkward stance went straight into the hole on the fly. Thrilling!


To cap off the day we were waiting on the tee box of the 18th hole which crosses over the fairway of the Dell hole. We waited for the group on the tee box of the Dell hole to hit their shots and congratulated one of the golfers who hit his shot to 3 feet on the blind par three. The golfer turned out to be Paul McGinley who turned to my group and thanked us for the good cheer and for coming to play at Lahinch. That and a nice cup of well fortified Irish coffee after the round made for a very special end to a great day on the links. Hope to get back there someday.

[Kalen Braley]

Its refreshing to see the pros play a course where the greens aren't blazing fast where they take a healthy cut at 25+ footers. I'm guessing their stimping at 8-9 ish...

[Lou_Duran]

But I play a large variety of courses in different geographies and help officiate competitions of mostly high levels of skill, and only on this site would there be a decided preference for the Lahinches of the world over the TPCs of MN.  And that's OK, golf is a Big World (God, do I miss Tom Paul!).

Lou - I am pretty sure our group of 24 would have been unanimous in favor of Lahinch. It was not a GCA crowd.

Assuming that Lahinch and the TPC MN were representative of their respective genres and that the effort to access them (distance and cost) is about the same, would your 23 non-GCAers still be unanimous in support of the former as to where they would play the majority of their golf?  If your thread is more general than the two specific courses you cited- i.e. links vs. parkland- my own anecdotal, non-scientific "research" ("Hey, what did you think of Bandon Dunes, TOC, Lahinch, etc.") over more than 20 years suggests a different preference.  I know of far more US golfers who are "once and done" with the likes of the aforementioned, than the few who can't wait to get back.  Even locally, Trinity Forest, a linksy design, there is a fairly common opinion that the Nelson leaving the Four Seasons TPC was a grave mistake.

[Lou_Duran]

...  I have thought that the Links at Spanish Bay gets a bad rap because it is compared to PB though what could be done at the latter from a political/regulatory standpoint was light years more permissive.
...

Are you sure that is the reason? I have read on this website that Spanish Bay falls short, because the best land was used for the hotel and surrounds. From that it seems capitalism, not regulation, prevented it from measuring up.

Admittedly I have never been there so can only report what I have read here.

I have played SB three or four times, had a couple long talks with the superintendent, even had a short chat with Tom Watson that touched on the subject (more about the failed experiment with fescue as a primary grass).  There is also quite a bit written, perhaps not on this website, about the hurdles they had to jump to physically build the course (including using wood paths for some of the construction equipment to haul material) and, if memory serves, that large parts of the site had sand and soils mined for use in other parts of the development.


As to the siting of the clubhouse and hospitality on the "best land", I know just enough about land planning to be dangerous, but pull up Google maps and tell me that you think that this criticism is accurate?  Contrast the location of the ocean holes at SB and PB in relation to the proximity to the beach/water.  Do you think that the set-backs were driven by design intent or by regulation? 


A common complaint about SB is that for a resort course, it is not wide enough- many lost balls and long rounds- mainly because the native vegetation encroaches close to the playing areas.  Would you believe that the mowing lines are tightly controlled by the area conservation and environmental authorities?  As it was explained to me, to expand or change the approved patterns, it requires a lengthy application and review process which often has a less than even chance of approval.  Essentially, as Bob Huntley once told me about giving up on changing a toilet in his Carmel Valley home miles away from the ocean because it required an expensive, lengthy approval from the CCC, the effort is too laborious.


And, BTW, not many courses in the world compare to Pebble Beach.  The lesser sister will always be unfairly compared.  I can't imagine a trip to Carmel without including SB and Spyglass.


 

[Kalen Braley]

While watching the Telecast today, the 8th hole seemed familiar in some way...and a few hours later the 11th at Ballyneal popped in head.  How it sits between two dunes, plays a bit uphill over a low area, and has those two small bunkers on the front and right side of the green.

[Jason Topp]

But I play a large variety of courses in different geographies and help officiate competitions of mostly high levels of skill, and only on this site would there be a decided preference for the Lahinches of the world over the TPCs of MN.  And that's OK, golf is a Big World (God, do I miss Tom Paul!).

Lou - I am pretty sure our group of 24 would have been unanimous in favor of Lahinch. It was not a GCA crowd.

Assuming that Lahinch and the TPC MN were representative of their respective genres and that the effort to access them (distance and cost) is about the same, would your 23 non-GCAers still be unanimous in support of the former as to where they would play the majority of their golf?  If your thread is more general than the two specific courses you cited- i.e. links vs. parkland- my own anecdotal, non-scientific "research" ("Hey, what did you think of Bandon Dunes, TOC, Lahinch, etc.") over more than 20 years suggests a different preference.  I know of far more US golfers who are "once and done" with the likes of the aforementioned, than the few who can't wait to get back.  Even locally, Trinity Forest, a linksy design, there is a fairly common opinion that the Nelson leaving the Four Seasons TPC was a grave mistake.

Lou - the closest local comparison to your example I can come up with (and admittedly it is a faint one) would be to compare my club (which bears some resemblance to links golf during the right time of year on relatively interesting land) to TPC Twin Cities.  I have never heard a local express a preference for the TPC. 


If the TPC resembled a parkland golf, I would have less of an issue with it as a venue.  Our city has many interesting parkland courses located on interesting land.  Instead it is more akin to a bent grass Florida golf course. 


I think comparing an Irish course on a magical stretch of links land to a course located on a garbage dump on the wrong side of Dallas is a difficult comparison. I enjoyed Trinity Forest but would never suggest that my view represents a wider audience.

[Niall C]

On my California trip a few years ago I stayed at the Inn at Spanish Bay. Played both PB and Spyglass but not Spanish Bay, reason being I'm a belt notcher (see other thread about rip off Scotland and Ireland). I did however walk a lot of the course and it interested me much more than Spyglass which was nice but underwhelming. If I was going back I'd play SB before Spyglass.

Never played Lahinch.

Niall

[Lou_Duran]

I think comparing an Irish course on a magical stretch of links land to a course located on a garbage dump on the wrong side of Dallas is a difficult comparison. I enjoyed Trinity Forest but would never suggest that my view represents a wider audience.

But are you suggesting that Lahinch would?  In some respects, I think that the American retail golfer would indeed prefer TF to Lahinch.  I also think that most people watching golf prefer birdies and eagles to up-and-down pars, bogies, and the occasional disaster.  I wonder what TV viewership would be of a the steady diet of Open courses.  In addition to the Valhalla aspects of AN, there is a reason why viewers love the back 9.  I doubt that TOC has earned the same type of popularity.  Maybe we're that way because that's more of our natural environment, though I can tell you that one of the guys in my group is from England and his friends love parkland courses, riding carts, beer coolers, and C&W and classic rock blaring from the cart speakers.  I know, the horror should they try to take it back home with them.

[Jason Topp]

I think comparing an Irish course on a magical stretch of links land to a course located on a garbage dump on the wrong side of Dallas is a difficult comparison. I enjoyed Trinity Forest but would never suggest that my view represents a wider audience.

But are you suggesting that Lahinch would? 

Yes

[jeffwarne]

After watching Lahinch and the PGA Tour yesterday, and mindful that I should promote SiriusXM PGA Tour Radio coverage, I suggested on air this morning that TPC Minnesota was the perfect course for radio....