Golf Networking - 21st century shenanigans

[Alex Miller]

It’s 2019 and you can bet that I connect on LinkedIn with others at work and in my professional sphere. While I’m not a huge fan or participant in social media, I can’t deny the benefits of networking and the opportunities that can come from it. I still prefer analog relationships though, and happily I’ve met many from GCA in person and even for the ones I haven’t, there are likely 2nd and 3rd connections of good people who can be vouched for (of course we’ve seen the rare exception or two, but they usually make it pretty obvious).

There have been others like it, but it’s been interesting to hear about Thousand Greens in the last couple months. I’ve had friends share how amped they are to be on there, to not only play some amazing courses but also how much of a community that has been fostered there in a short amount of time.

I've also been made aware of some potential scammy ones. I don't like the idea of charging for access just to join a pseudo-club that relies on circumventing actual clubs. Private Club Network and Preserved Links come to mind. They seem like Outpost want-to-be's that may not actually have the network they claim to have.


I’d be interested to hear what others here think of TG, Outpost, Preserved, and others if they’ve used, and what your experience has been like. I’m also curious what the general temperature is on new services like these. I can't say I'd be happy to have my club circumvented without everyone aware of how access is attained. I'll share my perspective after others have a go.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Preserved Links is run by Nick Ribeiro.


Any questions?

[Mike Sweeney]

I can't say I'd be happy to have my club circumvented without everyone aware of how access is attained.

Rules vs System is an age old problem in The World. Golf is part of The World.


My favorite access story is from Yale, which is very generous with allowing people to play their course. It is very European where the golf comes above many other things. Told to me by a former poster:


GCA Member to Yale Staff: Can I play on May 25, 20XX?


Yale Staff to GCA Member: What is your affiliation with Yale University?


GCA Member to Yale Staff: Well, I got rejected by your law school twice!! 


Yale Staff to GCA Member: Okay you have the 10 AM tee time!!


My added rules would be added onto the Lulu Rules (Rule #1: no jeans, Rule #2: play in four hours):

• Don't ever walk back to play a shot - aka a lost ball.
• Fix three ball marks on every green.
• Repair divots, and yes carry sand on Bermuda based courses to repair divots. I have broken that rule on Bermuda grass, and I regret it. I am just not used to it.
• Don't bet more than the cost of lunch.

I have a logon at Thousand Greens and it seems like it has potential. I have never used it for access, yet.

I am a Member at Enniscrone GC, and I like the European model. I know they get a slow group once in awhile, but they deal with it by humor rather than attitude.

Bob Huntley was my Mentor, and he fought in the Mau Mau Uprising, so technology platforms really can't figure out that algorithm.

It's golf - play and have fun.

[Alex Miller]

That's a great story, Mike!


To clarify my issue would not be with having a visitor enjoy the course- I really do hope as many as possible could come out and experience it.


But having some middle man pocket $1000 in the process... well I'd rather they call up like the GCA member did and lay it out there. Or just be themselves and see if they can use their own network as a starting point. I think most here can attest that works pretty well!


But I do appreciate some of the modern day solutions being applied. Just seems like there's a wide variety of options and they're not all as similar as they may appear.

[John Kavanaugh]

I've been in a situation where I was paying dues at two clubs that were part of The Outpost. The energy I expended being upset about it was wasted. Sometimes you can't see your victories for the trophies. Just like today, I get home and have to spend 30 minutes cleaning up the mess some relatives left out at the pool. I have a mind to grab a can opener and cut em a new window in the double wide. Serve them right. Shit, what's a can opener?

[John Kavanaugh]

If you are a member of a private club today you need to learn to share and accept the fact that you are probably paying more than everyone you know. If you can't live with that than you just aren't country club material. I deal with it by enjoying the membership more than anyone else. It's a very satisfying solution to a difficult problem.

[Steve Lang]

Alex,


Do you see the market for access being more demanding because of the nature of the technology?  Phone/website interaction probably breeds more shenanigans than paper and pencil and the US Post Offcie snail mail used to.


Is it just the cyber belt knotching mode of today's young hip golfer?

[Peter Pallotta]

As I've said (and complimented him on) before: JK puts his money where his mouth is when it comes to golf and private golf club membership -- and more, he understands exactly what he's doing and why, ie actually paying more for *golf* per round than anyone else or than he himself really needs to, all so as to support a *club*.
More JK's in American golf and it would be healthy for years to come.

[John Kavanaugh]

Peter,


I'm no saint. I do it because I love it. I just booked a one way ticket to play in the match play club championship at a course where I am a member. It could be a one round and out event which in case would be an early trip home. I'm just not a good enough person to stick around Sunday and be happy for who ever beats me.


As far as anything else, truth be told I'm not a member of a single club that wouldn't be just fine without me. I'm grateful every time I walk into a locker room and see my name is still up on that locker.

[B.Ross]

a bunch of things going on here at once, so may as well share my thoughts, statements, questions and clarifications:


1. private club network, you only get access if your club enrolls. if your club enrolled, they likely did so to provide you with an added benefit of setup reciprocity either for free or a reduced guest fee. if the latter, it's because your club needs guest fees coming in from other places to subsidize expenses. additionally, while their clublist isnt fully public, some decent googling allows you to find it most of the clubs on it are not member-owned. theyre corporate or owned by a family entity, hence for profit.


2. as i understand it, the outpost club sets up most of its premium (top 200) access through mid-week day outings, or mondays. these events arent free to their members and i'd be surprised if a club is offering the OC a discount on its outings. beyond that, the access the OC affords isnt guaranteed. it's member to member or through their concierge. as of q4 '18, they integrated with 1000greens to facilitate much of that member to member access and to alleviate their concierge.


3. as for thousandgreens, no club can tell you who your guests can/can't be. they can just limit the # of guests you can have in a year / month or how often the same person can be your guest. (not breaking any news here). obviously, a club board can pull the "conduct unbecoming of a member" card if they don't like who your guests are or if they find out you're bringing strangers for profit. this is why TG preaches cost-neutrality and not being commercialized or monetized. its provided me great experiences both as a guest and as a host. the tiering system helps regulate things as well.


4. preserved links - from its website it says access provided "Through its members." so not quite sure why one would pay to join a group that's offering the same concept as thousandgreens, except that it's tier agnostic. i'll leave it at that.

[John Kavanaugh]

I think we have all heard rumors about guys who sell access to their own clubs. I didn't think it was true until I saw it this year over on a familiar chat room. Everyone ate it up like it was perfectly normal behavior. Basically you play him for money and he doesn't pay if he loses but collects the winnings. What almost made me lay up, sorry, throw up, was the openness of it all. He was 100% open that the money off set the downstroke of membership. 21st century shenanigans.

[John Kavanaugh]

Below is the offer: I xxxed out the name of the member and club.

I mayyyyy add a gambling element: as in maybe there’s a $3/hole full handicap match-play wager. We see how much the balance is at the end of the round, and if I’m up, you contribute that amount to the “Bxxxx had to pay an initiation fee to get us all access to Mxxxxxx” fund. If you’re up or the balance is $0, you don’t have to. Idk. I don’t particularly like golf gambling/competition - I’m more of a casual “golf is my escape/church” kind of golfer - but it could be fun.

[B.Ross]

no need to be shy about it, a simple google of "I mayyyyy add a gambling element: as in maybe there’s a $3/hole full handicap match-play wager. We see how much the balance is at the end of the round, and if I’m up, you contribute that amount to the"

[/size]will take you to the direct URL. lets just say its saucy. [/color]

[/size]now, it doesn't seem like a full on case of selling access b/c if even the guy wiped the floor w/ his guest, he'd be up 54 bucks. now if he filled the foursome and wiped the floor w/ all 3, then he's making a dent...
[/color]

[JMEvensky]

As I've said (and complimented him on) before: JK puts his money where his mouth is when it comes to golf and private golf club membership -- and more, he understands exactly what he's doing and why, ie actually paying more for *golf* per round than anyone else or than he himself really needs to, all so as to support a *club*.
More JK's in American golf and it would be healthy for years to come.

I'm not sure you realize how right you are. Sadly,IMO,the JK's are a dying breed (figuratively for JK personally I hope). I don't know what private clubs will look like in 25 years, but I think they'll be a lot less financially stable without members like him who understand the dynamics.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is anyone using Venmo to settle up accts? My personal gambling buddies were talking about us getting set up so we didn't have to worry about carrying cash. I personally get nauseous at the thought of an electronic record of my gambling habits. To quote someone familiar:

(Venmo for everything after the round while we chill at the bar is preferred)

Won't this lead to further shenanigans or will it simply ensure the host gets paid?

[B.Ross]

i don't want to hijack this thread into another about the future of US privates, and i also commend JK for being so willing to support the way he does & not benefit on a cost per round basis. so, if anyone wants to ignore all of the below, feel free...


however, younger generations do think about cost efficiency or value. so instead of putting them in a situation where they're over-subsidizing, shouldn't clubs do more things to expand the value of their membership? to me, that could include "things" like the following:


- more reciprocity for cart/caddie/trail fees regionally and nationwide.
- looser guest rules
- greater transparency into club finances with regards to who's coming to the club as unaccompanied guests & for how much (whether its via other club pros calling in favors, outpost or outings)
- increased transparency about what being a member gets you in terms of access elsewhere beyond reciprocity (what it costs, how often it can occur and where it can happen)
- member benefits when traveling to the destination resorts (e.g. the clubs golf director or GM makes a call to bandon before your buddies trip)

As I've said (and complimented him on) before: JK puts his money where his mouth is when it comes to golf and private golf club membership -- and more, he understands exactly what he's doing and why, ie actually paying more for *golf* per round than anyone else or than he himself really needs to, all so as to support a *club*.
More JK's in American golf and it would be healthy for years to come.

I'm not sure you realize how right you are. Sadly,IMO,the JK's are a dying breed (figuratively for JK personally I hope). I don't know what private clubs will look like in 25 years, but I think they'll be a lot less financially stable without members like him who understand the dynamics.

[Steve Kohler]

I belong to both The Outpost Club and Thousand Greens. 


I've been a member of Outpost for about 5 years.  They have a pretty robust event schedule and, at least to my knowledge, those events occur with the knowledge and support of the hosting club.  From the hosting club's standpoint, the outings typically occur at nonpeak times so the member disturbance is minimal and the guests typically spend a small fortune in the pro shop, on F&B and for onsite lodging.  In my experience, the club staff and sponsoring members are eager to share their club with a group that is highly appreciative of the opportunity to be there.


My value out of the Outpost is having the opportunity to connect with fellow golf enthusiasts and see interesting and significant golf courses.  I personally am grateful for every opportunity and am sure to act accordingly with my host, the pro and club staff.  While I've had the chance to play some prestigious clubs, I've most appreciated the exposure to under the radar courses - the type that don't get much discussion or wouldn't get much attention if you were passing through the area on your own.  I've uncovered some real gems because of connections through the OC.


As for Thousand Greens - I like the concept but the execution needs to continue to be honed.  I've been on it for about 8 months and used it twice to arrange games while traveling.  Both times the accepting host ghosted me when it came time to set final details.  Also, my home club does not appear on any top lists, so while I'd be thrilled to host guests and show off my club it doesn't generate any interest through TG.  I think that imbalance - the "name" courses appear to be inundated with requests while the "unknowns" are forsaken - needs more work.

[Kalen Braley]

Based on some of the comments on off-peak time tee times, it seems like these Virtual Clubs are the alternative to clubs in the UK that just make these times open to the public....so I can see how that model would work.

And perhaps by forcing golfers to become members of these VCs, they can keep out the proverbial riff-raff, even if it adds a unneeded middle man...

[Tom_Doak]

- more reciprocity for cart/caddie/trail fees regionally and nationwide.
- looser guest rules
- greater transparency into club finances with regards to who's coming to the club as unaccompanied guests & for how much (whether its via other club pros calling in favors, outpost or outings)
- increased transparency about what being a member gets you in terms of access elsewhere beyond reciprocity (what it costs, how often it can occur and where it can happen)
- member benefits when traveling to the destination resorts (e.g. the clubs golf director or GM makes a call to bandon before your buddies trip)

I am curious about your list.


What, for example, do you expect or want a resort like Bandon Dunes to do for you as a member of Nameless Country Club, that they wouldn't do for all of their other paying guests?  Just keeping track of the fact that you are a club member who wants perks, would cost them money in terms of operations.


Transparency at all clubs would be a good idea, but the managers of clubs are scared to death of it, so it probably isn't going to become a thing.

[Colin Macqueen]

Gentlemen,
I could be wrong about this but I don't think that here in Australia there are the equivalents of the Outpost, Thousand Greens, Preserved Links etc..
From what I can gather the reciprocal memberships that Oz golf clubs seem to have works very well. So for example as a member of Indooroopilly Golf Club in Brisbane I get 6 plays a year, free of charge, at each and any of the reciprocals. That's Yarra Yarra, Woodlands, Peninsula, Commonwealth, and that's just Melbourne.  So do clubs in USA have this type of arrangement and if so why these other institutions? Now admittedly the quality of course that one gets access oo is somewhat determined by the perceived quality of club you belong to .... but nonetheless.
Cheers Colin

[Mike Sweeney]

What, for example, do you expect or want a resort like Bandon Dunes to do for you as a member of Nameless Country Club, that they wouldn't do for all of their other paying guests?  Just keeping track of the fact that you are a club member who wants perks, would cost them money in terms of operations.

Tom,


I am the "other way" in this perspective. If I was the Manager of Bandon Dunes and I have Guest from Doak 4's and 5's that are repeat guest at Bandon Dunes, that would be VERY valuable information - both pubic and private. How do I get them back, and who is the "Influencer" that gets these guys to our very very remote resort that is expensive?


If you buy into the theory that there are 300 or so Members of these Top 100 Courses (say 400 clubs) that means there are 120,000 golfers that appreciate "Doak 7's" or higher. That is a pretty small universe when you have guys like me that want to play overseas rather than in Oregon.


BRoss may be onto something...


Colin,


That sounds awesome. I genuinely would love to come back in a next life in Oz...

[David Restrepo]

Gentlemen,
I could be wrong about this but I don't think that here in Australia there are the equivalents of the Outpost, Thousand Greens, Preserved Links etc..
From what I can gather the reciprocal memberships that Oz golf clubs seem to have works very well. So for example as a member of Indooroopilly Golf Club in Brisbane I get 6 plays a year, free of charge, at each and any of the reciprocals. That's Yarra Yarra, Woodlands, Peninsula, Commonwealth, and that's just Melbourne.  So do clubs in USA have this type of arrangement and if so why these other institutions? Now admittedly the quality of course that one gets access oo is somewhat determined by the perceived quality of club you belong to .... but nonetheless.
Cheers Colin

Colin - your comment ties in nicely with the "country clubs at a crossroads" thread. As an American who moved to Australia some time ago, I appreciate the reciprocity network, both domestically and internationally, that Australian golf clubs offer. One can only dream that clubs in the US can follow suit.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,


If they had a bunch of empty tee sheets, I would agree 100% that it would be valuable information to drive future business.  But given the resort is not hurting and at full capacity most of the time, (or so i'm guessing), why would they care?


Colin,


This is what i was trying to get at with my last post.  Its my understanding that Australia employs the UK model of limited open tee times to the public.  So these middle-man clubs would be completely unnecessary down under.

[Alex Miller]

Appreciate the discussion, guys. Clearly there's a lot of different elements to modern memberships and access, and yet it does seem that Oz and the UK get some things right that for some reason just don't translate in the states. This is the land of manifest destiny and staking your claim, so perhaps things are a little more guarded here.



I can see why though when things like the below get spread about with no factual basis whatsoever. I received these from a friend and fellow GCAer whom I've golfed with multiple times and trust completely- 21st century shenanigans at its finest.





Interesting... never been to GCGC and the only post on my instagram from the last 18 months (see I really don't love social media) is from Splash House of all things... which if you want to look it up is probably hard to confuse with Garden City  . Weird flex Nick, and completely false, but ok.





If that is who's running Preserved Links, I'd give caution to those who choose to give this guy not only their money and access but also their trust. Apparently this is not a new instance, but I've never interacted with the guy and have no plans to so I have no skin in the game.

[Alex Miller]

Oh the irony! Forgive me guys but I'll be responding to any of Nick's overtures on here... red text is mine.


 




I think open communities like GCA or Thousand Greens (from what i'm hearing) are important as community and camaraderie is vitally important to any club, real or virtual. Clearly I value this community and can attribute so much of what I'm able to enjoy about the game today on a daily basis to friendships forged here and the exchange of knowledge.


There's so much passion for golf and I think GCA does help spread the joy of the game. You can see this through Ran's efforts, his pointing toward the 147 custodians, the research and course tours, and all of us who have contributed in our own ways. It's a very cool community and one I hope to be a part of for a long time. (Ran please forgive this thread, I promise it's got its heart in the right place.)