Private Clubs at a Crossroads

[Bernie Bell]

So what is the millennial looking for in a private club?  One of you holds out Palmetto as a model, another reciprocal networks, and a third the "Australian model."  Each very different.  Two millennials on the board at my club, for what it's worth.  Perhaps we're an outlier in that regard. 

[B.Ross]

bernie i think the 1 thing that ties all 3 of those things together is value or efficiency. to not pay for things that aren't utilized.

[John Kirk]

John,


Were you ever bullied as a child for having nice things?

That's a weird question.  But I'll assume it's a serious one.  Not that I remember, John.  My "things" weren't any nicer than anybody else in my neighborhood or home town.  We didn't live in the nice part of town, especially after my parents divorced.

I have vague recollections of being assaulted as a very young kid at a park I didn't belong at, and riding home upset and scared.  Similarly, my friend was once hit by a bottle on our way back from the local grocery store when we were 8 or 9.  Maybe those were instances of bullying (or assault) for having nice things, if nice things means bicycles.  Probably just for being blue eyed and blonde haired, and looking like we didn't belong in that neighborhood.


The primary bullying or gamesmanship I remember is from basketball players trying to throw you off your game.

I'd ask why you would ask such a personal thing, but my experience tells me you have no intention of explaining yourself.  Perhaps it's a roundabout way of bullying by letting me humiliate myself.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,


I ask because when we first met you were a member of a collection of national clubs that would even make me envious. If I read you correctly you are no longer a member of those clubs. It seems like our lives have mirrored each others in many ways and I thought maybe like me, you always felt a tinge of shame for having nice things but overcame it by collecting even more nice things. It's a tough life if you can get it.


Even today I do not wear golf shorts outside the gates of where I play. I find it humiliating to fly the private club flag in modern society. Better for private club golfers to keep their head down so to speak.

[Kalen Braley]

Kavanaugh,

Interesting question on Snobbery.  While I can't comment on the Private Club side of things, as I've never belonged to one....I would agree with Kirk in that all the snobs I've known had money, not visa versa.

But perhaps its the tweeners, neither rich nor poor looking longingly thru the gates, or even the poor thinking something along the lines of "what a waste of resources" albeit in a different vernacular..

[John Kavanaugh]

Imperial hat wearing beer snobs with loose fitting custom headcovers on top of Mackenzie walkers may have money but it ain't a requirement.

[Mike Sweeney]

While I can't comment on the Private Club side of things, as I've never belonged to one....

Kalen,



Team Ran runs Golf Club Atlas like a private club, in my opinion. Thus, you belong to a Private Club as defined by the ADA:
[size=78%]https://adata.org/factsheet/private-clubs-under-americans-disabilities-act[/size]
[/size]
[/size]A General Definition of Private Clubs
[/size]Private membership clubs are organizations that generally have some meaningful conditions for membership, with operations often controlled by the membership, and whose facilities and activities are only open to members and their guests. Private clubs are often formed for social or recreational purposes, to promote common causes, or to associate with others who share similar viewpoints or values.A private club has the right of “expressive association,” protected under the First Amendment to the Constitution, which means the club is allowed to exclude individuals who do not represent its expressed viewpoints or principles. This enables a private club to maintain a cohesive and consistent message to both its members and the public.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,


I meant that to mean a Private Golf clubs.  I've certainly been in "private clubs" before...

[Mike_Young]

We can talk about snobbery, craft beers, leather bags, casual dining but in the free enterprise system eventually a business has to make a profit or at least break even to continue.  If it can't it goes away and it happens to be someone's sandbox they will eventually tire of it if it cost them.  Most of golf right no doesn't work and much of that getting all of the praise is loosing it's butt. 

[John Kavanaugh]

We can talk about snobbery, craft beers, leather bags, casual dining but in the free enterprise system eventually a business has to make a profit or at least break even to continue.  If it can't it goes away and it happens to be someone's sandbox they will eventually tire of it if it cost them.  Most of golf right no doesn't work and much of that getting all of the praise is loosing it's butt.

Mike,


Do you have a problem with people who can't afford to pay what it costs to sustain a club being forced out of the game?

[Craig Moore]

Private clubs are at a crossroads but the big issue is going to be clubhouses more than the courses when it comes to surviving...

Best post of the thread.  There is an entity in SW MI that owns around 4 courses, 3 of which the courses are private but the clubhouses are open to the public. This is something that could help save some 2nd and 3rd tier clubs, but change is too slow for many clubs which = NLE

[Kalen Braley]

I had assumed, but perhaps it is faulty that the vast majority of top tier clubs are older and aren't carrying any land acquisition or design/build costs, just ongoing maintenance and minor improvements.

Even at the 2nd/3rd tier level, aren't there a good number that own thier property outright?

[Mike_Young]

We can talk about snobbery, craft beers, leather bags, casual dining but in the free enterprise system eventually a business has to make a profit or at least break even to continue.  If it can't it goes away and it happens to be someone's sandbox they will eventually tire of it if it cost them.  Most of golf right no doesn't work and much of that getting all of the praise is loosing it's butt.

Mike,


Do you have a problem with people who can't afford to pay what it costs to sustain a club being forced out of the game?

ZERO PROBLEM WITH THAT...  however, they can still be in the game if they choose...it's like the guy that has to quit driving the 750 BMW and go to the Camry...the problem arises when the company building the Camry can't afford to build the car. 

[John Kavanaugh]

My issue is that if one golfer can only afford a Camry we will all be forced to drive a Camry. I'm already seeing it from the untucked shirts to the slow greens. Every new rule introduced this year is an attempt to lower the bar of entry into the game.

[Michael Dugger]

I just can't really get into this thread.  In my mind things are pretty much the same as they always are.


As the economy expands and contracts, so will country club memberships.  The uber rich aren't affected by the forces that impact the other 99% of us.


I think inflation growing disproportionately respective to wages is going to keep the fringes away from membership, and perhaps this is really the point.


There will always be a place for the John Kavanaugh's of the world to call home, I'm certainly not worried about that.   

[John Kavanaugh]

Michael,


There will not always be a place for people like me who can only afford to play where there are many, many more members. We just lost another bowling alley and no longer have one within an hours drive from where I sit. I can't really come up with any reasons why golf should survive while bowling can not. Oh maybe one, the private club thing.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is there really any doubt that if the market gets to decide private golf will outlive public golf. Once you open the doors more people will leave than come in.

[Michael Dugger]

Michael,


There will not always be a place for people like me who can only afford to play where there are many, many more members. We just lost another bowling alley and no longer have one within an hours drive from where I sit. I can't really come up with any reasons why golf should survive while bowling can not. Oh maybe one, the private club thing.

Well, when golf becomes the number one priority in your life, move where you can join a club in a big enough region to support a private club.


I don't ever recall a day where every single community can float it.

[John Kavanaugh]

Big Papi thought he could go out amongst the people and have a nice night out. I simply just want to feel safe while I enjoy a day outside with my buds. There are very few public spaces where that is currently possible.

[Michael Dugger]

Big Papi thought he could go out amongst the people and have a nice night out. I simply just want to feel safe while I enjoy a day outside with my buds. There are very few public spaces where that is currently possible.

oh puh leez, that's low hanging fruit there, my friend.


Big Papi was stupid to think he could bang the local drug kingpin's wife and then go out in public without repercussions.


That's IF you believe the story.


Dom Repub. is just dangerous, period.


Stop contributing to policy that makes the middle class homeless if you don't like feeling unsafe.  It's Darwinism.


I see like 4 other country clubs within 10-20 miles of Vict. Nat'l.  There are plenty of places for you to feel safe.

[John Kavanaugh]

I already drive 70 miles each way 5 days a week to play Victoria. The other clubs aren't worth the drive.

[Michael Dugger]

I already drive 70 miles each way 5 days a week to play Victoria. The other clubs aren't worth the drive.

I see.  So the real issue is too many people in your community have the poor taste to support a private club that isn't architecturally stimulating golfwise.


Makes sense   

[John Kavanaugh]

If this site hates on private club members how bad must it be out in the real world?

[Mike Sweeney]

If this site hates on private club members how bad must it be out in the real world?

What planet are you on? This site loves private golf clubs with real estate, private golf club members, and private golf clubs without real estate that access private golf clubs with real estate!! How much more love can you get

[B.Ross]

any chance we can de-hijack this thread and bring it back to its original intent instead of trolling/sarcasm?  there's a good discussion to be had.