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Mike_Young

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State Golf Association is confused
« on: June 01, 2019, 06:32:42 PM »
Our State Golf Association publishes a magazine which I assume is set up where the publisher would recieve the advertising revenue and give the magazine.  BUT out of 32 pages last month I think 14 were Full pages for playing golf out of the state and then email notices are constantly sent out promoting out of state travel AND the latest was an email blast for PGA Superstore 20% discount Fathers Day.  Now these associations are there to serve the approx 400 golf courses which then serve the members and provide their handicaps and monthly magazine.  The individual is a member via the golf course.  This is not a service to membership in anyway...pure BS
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Edward Glidewell

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Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2019, 07:48:22 PM »
Our State Golf Association publishes a magazine which I assume is set up where the publisher would recieve the advertising revenue and give the magazine.  BUT out of 32 pages last month I think 14 were Full pages for playing golf out of the state and then email notices are constantly sent out promoting out of state travel AND the latest was an email blast for PGA Superstore 20% discount Fathers Day.  Now these associations are there to serve the approx 400 golf courses which then serve the members and provide their handicaps and monthly magazine.  The individual is a member via the golf course.  This is not a service to membership in anyway...pure BS


I've wondered about that too. Tons of advertisements for Florida courses in the Georgia association magazine.


I also think the GSGA should have more tournaments for non-elite golfers (or just more events in general).

Ben Malach

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Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2019, 12:25:09 AM »
IMHO state/local golf publications are a hard racket, promote too much with in a strict parameter you become an echo chamber, get to broad you lose focus. Ideally there is enough good golf in regional tournament, interesting matches and great courses to cover. The golf mag would never have to retread similar topics but in a majority of states and provinces this is not the case. Therefore in those states and regions the local golf paper will be no more. Is this sad, yes indefinitely but will it affect the game beyond the traditional golf market, no so who cares.
@benmalach on Instagram and Twitter

David_Tepper

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Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2019, 06:08:48 AM »
Mike -

You have raised this issue before. I disagreed with you then and I do now. There is nothing to stop Georgia clubs/courses/resorts from advertising in the Georgia magazine. I imagine there are golf resorts in Georgia that advertise in magazines produced by other state golf associations. Should they be prevented from doing so? Should there be a free market or should information be censored? ;)

I also feel these state/regional golf associations belong as much to the individual members as to the member clubs. I don't know about Georgia, but in Northern California there are a large number of "associate clubs," where the members are not affiliated with a specific golf course/club. The members are affiliated by a common interest, such as working for the same company, being in the same profession, an alumni group, etc. 


The fact is golfers like to travel elsewhere at times to play. In Northern California, the NCGA magazine has adverts from place in Oregon, Hawaii, British Columbia, etc. I appreciate knowing what travel options are out there.


DT

Mike_Young

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Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2019, 08:09:09 AM »
Mike -

You have raised this issue before. I disagreed with you then and I do now. There is nothing to stop Georgia clubs/courses/resorts from advertising in the Georgia magazine. I imagine there are golf resorts in Georgia that advertise in magazines produced by other state golf associations. Should they be prevented from doing so? Should there be a free market or should information be censored? ;)

I also feel these state/regional golf associations belong as much to the individual members as to the member clubs. I don't know about Georgia, but in Northern California there are a large number of "associate clubs," where the members are not affiliated with a specific golf course/club. The members are affiliated by a common interest, such as working for the same company, being in the same profession, an alumni group, etc. 


The fact is golfers like to travel elsewhere at times to play. In Northern California, the NCGA magazine has adverts from place in Oregon, Hawaii, British Columbia, etc. I appreciate knowing what travel options are out there.


DT


David,
I have raised it before but every so often it becomes so obvious or someone else mentions it and I get pissed.


Here's where we agree on the matter:
Georgia Clubs should be free to advertise all they wish in the state magazine.  If I were an out out state resort such as the RTJ Trail (20 miles form my course)etc then of course I would advertise if it was allowed.  If Georgia Toyota dealers had a magazine and the magazine asked the Alabama Nissan dealers if they would like to advertise then I would definitely do that also.  But Toyota dealers are not going to accept threads from Nissan dealers or even out of state Toyota dealers.


Here's where we disagree:
 
The state magazine should not accept ads from any resort or golf course or company that would take play or revenue  from the association members. 


The state golf association is there to represent the golf courses in the state and the various golf groups.  The individual members are affiliated with these courses and clubs.   Go back to when the USGA began and it was never individuals.  And for a very long time ( not that long ago) public golf courses were not members.  An individual can't just go and join the state golf association.  Therefore IMHO the state golf association is there to support the clubs in that state and help them provide services to their members, be it handicaps, play days , tournaments etc.  The club and the individual have different needs and goals and the association cannot step over the club to serve the individual.


I realize golfers like to travel and hopefully travel out of the state.  But the state golf magazine or their email blast is not the place.  Leave that up to the clubs and send brochures to the clubs if they request them for promotion to their members.  But don't be putting out PGA Superstore 20% fathers day discounts when all of your member clubs are selling the same thing.  Don't be offering golf trips with the state golf association to various resorts unless you are cutting the clubs in. 


In these times associations feel they are more important than their members and use accumulated data from member clubs etc to benefit them more than their members.

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2019, 08:29:58 AM »
Mike -

I understand what you are saying. But I don't agree with it, especially this comment:

"The club and the individual have different needs and goals and the association cannot step over the club to serve the individual."


I believe the association should serve the individuals over the clubs/courses. Whether the USGA at one point did not allow individual members or public courses to join is not particularly relevant at this point, at least to me.

As I mentioned, in NorCal there are associate member clubs comprised of individuals who have no affiliation with any golf club or course.

DT
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 10:36:10 AM by David_Tepper »

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2019, 09:09:01 AM »
Mike -

I understand what you are saying. But I don't agree with it, especially this comment:
"The club and the individual have different needs and goals and the association cannot step over the club to serve the individual."
I believe the association should serve the individuals over the clubs/courses. Whether the USGA at one point did not allow individual members or public courses to join is not particularly relevant at this point, at least to me. As I mentioned, in NorCal there are associate member clubs comprised of individuals who have no affiliation with any golf club or course.
DT


Well David if that were the case then they should not charge the clubs/courses to be members.  Using your logic would you say that EZ-GO golf cars state distributor should serve the individual or the club? 
At the end of the day the same guys and clubs are going to be selling and playing golf with or without an association. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2019, 09:41:34 AM »
Seems to me the question is really do you want a newsletter/magazine with out of state ads or no magazine at all?

I’d side with having the magazine. It’s not like people are going to travel for ALL or even a majority of their golf.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2019, 10:12:11 AM »
Seems to me the question is really do you want a newsletter/magazine with out of state ads or no magazine at all?

I’d side with having the magazine. It’s not like people are going to travel for ALL or even a majority of their golf.
A newsletter a few times a year is all that is needed.  Most trade journals and magazines as such are where the publisher gets all the ad revenue and mails the magazine to the individuals...I would just prefer for golf to get back to the individual player...hell...via the state association we just got a 23 million dollar funding for the new Bobby Jones reverse 9 course which competes with the association member and will be home to the Ga Pga and State Golf etc...across the board I will continue to feel associations should be the tail wagged by the dog but instead they are wagging the dog...

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill Charles

Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2019, 10:17:24 AM »
These problems can all be tracked back to Trump. These associations are blood thirsty for profit and will do what ever it takes to get it.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2019, 10:33:36 AM »
"Using your logic would you say that EZ-GO golf cars state distributor should serve the individual or the club?"

Mike -

Sorry, but that statement is utterly irrelevant to the discussion. EZ- GO golf carts is a for-profit business whose only customers are golf course owners/operators.

State golf associations are (I assume) non-profit entities whose purpose is to serve the individual members, the member clubs/courses and the game of golf.

Out of curiosity, how much does your course/club pay the state association each year? Of that amount, how much do you collect from your individual members in association dues of some sort?

DT


P.S. The NCGA owns and operates 2 daily-fee golf courses that offer favorable green fee rates to NCGA individual members, which I think is a great service for the members
 
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 10:50:43 AM by David_Tepper »

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2019, 10:53:34 AM »
Seems to me the question is really do you want a newsletter/magazine with out of state ads or no magazine at all?

I’d side with having the magazine. It’s not like people are going to travel for ALL or even a majority of their golf.
A newsletter a few times a year is all that is needed.  Most trade journals and magazines as such are where the publisher gets all the ad revenue and mails the magazine to the individuals...I would just prefer for golf to get back to the individual player...hell...via the state association we just got a 23 million dollar funding for the new Bobby Jones reverse 9 course which competes with the association member and will be home to the Ga Pga and State Golf etc...across the board I will continue to feel associations should be the tail wagged by the dog but instead they are wagging the dog...
It still has to be paid for. And if out of state courses are willing to pay for advertising…
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Bill Charles

Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2019, 11:29:13 AM »
Seems to me the question is really do you want a newsletter/magazine with out of state ads or no magazine at all?

I’d side with having the magazine. It’s not like people are going to travel for ALL or even a majority of their golf.
A newsletter a few times a year is all that is needed.  Most trade journals and magazines as such are where the publisher gets all the ad revenue and mails the magazine to the individuals...I would just prefer for golf to get back to the individual player...hell...via the state association we just got a 23 million dollar funding for the new Bobby Jones reverse 9 course which competes with the association member and will be home to the Ga Pga and State Golf etc...across the board I will continue to feel associations should be the tail wagged by the dog but instead they are wagging the dog...
It still has to be paid for. And if out of state courses are willing to pay for advertising…


It should be about the game, not profit.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2019, 12:53:24 PM »
It should be about the game, not profit.
I never said profit.

And things - printing, mailing, writing/editing, photos, etc. - cost money.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Nick Ribeiro

Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2019, 02:07:44 PM »
I'm with CP on this one. There are costs associated with running a magazine, someones gotta pay. If not locals why not outsiders? Big resorts advertise in all of them, nothing wrong with that.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2019, 05:12:51 PM »
"Using your logic would you say that EZ-GO golf cars state distributor should serve the individual or the club?"

Mike -

Sorry, but that statement is utterly irrelevant to the discussion. EZ- GO golf carts is a for-profit business whose only customers are golf course owners/operators. 
NOT IRRELEVANT AT ALL...IN MOST CASES THE STATE GOLF MAGAZINE IS A FOR PROFIT BUSINESS FOR THE MAGAZINE COMPANY WHO SELLS THE ADS AND PRINTS THE MAGAZINE.  THIS IS NOT AD REVENUE FOR THE STATE GOLF ASSOCIATION. 

State golf associations are (I assume) non-profit entities whose purpose is to serve the individual members, the member clubs/courses and the game of golf.  I THINK WHAT YOU ASSUME IS PARTIALLY CORRECT.  THEY WERE DEVELOPED TO SERVE THE CLUBS BUT THEY TRY TO OUTGROW THEIR USEFULNESS AS EXECUTIVES HAVE TO JUSTIFY THEMSELVES.

Out of curiosity, how much does your course/club pay the state association each year? Of that amount, how much do you collect from your individual members in association dues of some sort?  IN GEORGIA IT IS 1200 BUCKS PER YEAR FOR A CLUB TO BE A MEMEBR AND THEY GET 50 HANDICAPS TO SELL BUT SO MANY PLACES DON'T HAVE 50 MEMBERS WHO WANT A HANDICAP...WE MIGHT COLLECT HALF OF THAT FEE...AT THE END OF THE DAY I SEEN OTHING THE STATE ASSOC OFFERS TO MOST CLUBS...

DT


P.S. The NCGA owns and operates 2 daily-fee golf courses that offer favorable green fee rates to NCGA individual members, which I think is a great service for the members .  HERE IN GA THEY CHARGE 85 BUCKS AND THERE ARE NO GREAT SERVICES FOR MEMBERS.
.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2019, 05:27:24 PM »
NOT IRRELEVANT AT ALL...IN MOST CASES THE STATE GOLF MAGAZINE IS A FOR PROFIT BUSINESS FOR THE MAGAZINE COMPANY WHO SELLS THE ADS AND PRINTS THE MAGAZINE.  THIS IS NOT AD REVENUE FOR THE STATE GOLF ASSOCIATION.
So, like I said… the choice might actually be between a golf magazine or NO golf magazine.

IN GEORGIA IT IS 1200 BUCKS PER YEAR FOR A CLUB TO BE A MEMEBR AND THEY GET 50 HANDICAPS TO SELL BUT SO MANY PLACES DON'T HAVE 50 MEMBERS WHO WANT A HANDICAP...WE MIGHT COLLECT HALF OF THAT FEE...AT THE END OF THE DAY I SEEN OTHING THE STATE ASSOC OFFERS TO MOST CLUBS...
And what do they offer for that $1200? Obviously they give you 50 handicaps. They also run golf tournaments, I imagine? Provide course rating services free or inexpensively, no?
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2019, 06:11:52 PM »
And what do they offer for that $1200? Obviously they give you 50 handicaps. They also run golf tournaments, I imagine? Provide course rating services free or inexpensively, no?


They do run golf tournaments, but nowhere near enough in my opinion. The Carolinas Golf Association runs 20+ one day tournaments each year for seniors (I know because my father plays in them regularly). The GSGA runs the standard events and that's basically it. They do also have something called member play days, but they're not actually a tournament. You just go out and play a round at a course they've picked. They're often at public courses (and the price of the event is sometimes more expensive than a regular green fee would be) and almost always in the middle of the week.


That's my only real complaint with the GSGA, though. I'd love to be able to play in a couple of tournaments a year but it's really only an option for elite golfers.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2019, 06:12:30 PM »
Mike,

I'm not really understanding the dilemma here. 

If its a service worth paying for, regardless of what you may be looking for in return, (financial benefit, advertising, connections, tourneys, etc)...then pay for it.

If it is not, then don't....

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2019, 09:05:24 PM »
NOT IRRELEVANT AT ALL...IN MOST CASES THE STATE GOLF MAGAZINE IS A FOR PROFIT BUSINESS FOR THE MAGAZINE COMPANY WHO SELLS THE ADS AND PRINTS THE MAGAZINE.  THIS IS NOT AD REVENUE FOR THE STATE GOLF ASSOCIATION.
So, like I said… the choice might actually be between a golf magazine or NO golf magazine.  THATS CORRECT...IF THE MAGAZINE HAS TO SELL ADS TO OUT OF STATE COMPETITION THEN IT NEEDS TO SHUT DOWN...

IN GEORGIA IT IS 1200 BUCKS PER YEAR FOR A CLUB TO BE A MEMEBR AND THEY GET 50 HANDICAPS TO SELL BUT SO MANY PLACES DON'T HAVE 50 MEMBERS WHO WANT A HANDICAP...WE MIGHT COLLECT HALF OF THAT FEE...AT THE END OF THE DAY I SEEN OTHING THE STATE ASSOC OFFERS TO MOST CLUBS...
And what do they offer for that $1200? Obviously they give you 50 handicaps. They also run golf tournaments, I imagine? Provide course rating services free or inexpensively, no?  THE GOLF TOURNAMENTS NOW HAVE SO MANY QUALIFYING TOURNEYS SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE $$$ FORM THOSE ALSO THUS THEY RUN THE TOURNAMNETS FOR THEIR BENEFIT...I AGREE THEY DO RUN THEM BUT ITS NOT FOR THE DIFFERENT COURSES BENEFIT...COURSE IS RATED EVERY 5 YEARS OR SO AND NOT WORTH THE PRICE...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2019, 09:06:24 PM »
Mike,

I'm not really understanding the dilemma here. 

If its a service worth paying for, regardless of what you may be looking for in return, (financial benefit, advertising, connections, tourneys, etc)...then pay for it.

If it is not, then don't....
WE AGREE BUT IT MAKES YOU OUT AS THE BAD GUY WHEN YOU DON'T TRY AND SUPPORT THE ASSOCIATION...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2019, 09:13:50 PM »
THE GOLF TOURNAMENTS NOW HAVE SO MANY QUALIFYING TOURNEYS SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE $$$ FORM THOSE ALSO THUS THEY RUN THE TOURNAMNETS FOR THEIR BENEFIT...I AGREE THEY DO RUN THEM BUT ITS NOT FOR THE DIFFERENT COURSES BENEFIT...COURSE IS RATED EVERY 5 YEARS OR SO AND NOT WORTH THE PRICE...
I think you're under-valuing some of the services they provide, and some of the good they do for the game in your area/state, but hey, my golf association doesn't have a print magazine, nor would I care if it had ads for out-of-area courses if they had one. So… good luck, I guess.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2019, 09:17:02 PM »
THE GOLF TOURNAMENTS NOW HAVE SO MANY QUALIFYING TOURNEYS SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE $$$ FORM THOSE ALSO THUS THEY RUN THE TOURNAMNETS FOR THEIR BENEFIT...I AGREE THEY DO RUN THEM BUT ITS NOT FOR THE DIFFERENT COURSES BENEFIT...COURSE IS RATED EVERY 5 YEARS OR SO AND NOT WORTH THE PRICE...
I think you're under-valuing some of the services they provide, and some of the good they do for the game in your area/state, but hey, my golf association doesn't have a print magazine, nor would I care if it had ads for out-of-area courses if they had one. So… good luck, I guess.
ITS THE IDEA OF NOT TAKING CARE OF THE MEMBERS THAT IRRITATES ME...BUT THANKS FOR THE LUCK THING
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2019, 09:23:51 PM »
ITS THE IDEA OF NOT TAKING CARE OF THE MEMBERS THAT IRRITATES ME...BUT THANKS FOR THE LUCK THING
I simply don't see how taking out-of-state advertising is "not taking care of the members." Are they barred from purchasing the advertising themselves?
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: State Golf Association is confused
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2019, 01:12:06 AM »

Q1. Are state associations for=profit organizations?
Q2. How much revenue do the state associations gain from these ads?
Q3. Does this revenue stream go to reducing the fees charged to clubs and members?

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