The World Handicap System. Is it Good? (Moved from the BUDA thread)

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Issued July 2018
Do I have to submit every score for every round I play?
No: you will have to submit all singles competition scores, and you will have the choice to submit social/recreational scores. All scores will have to be pre- registered.’

Consider me improved in my knowledge then, and add another point to the "don't assume" bucket. In the U.S. you're required to post all of your legitimate scores.

I play for fun not for score. I like playing shots that I would not necessarily hit in medal competition: big flop shots, running shots, bank shots, heroic shots, etc. I will hit any of these shots in match play as all I can lose is a hole. The USGA rules said something to the effect that I am suppose to try to achieve the best score possible and record that score. Other than medal competition I don't attempt to shoot the best score possible, recording that score would be padding my handicap. Should I give up golf or just stop playing in friendly competitions like the BUDA, Dixie Cup, Midwest Mashie, etc.

As you're in the U.S., yes, you're supposed to record every legitimate score, and to try to score the best each time - that provision is more intended to stop someone from intentionally missing a short putt or something to pad his handicap. But you're effectively doing the same thing. You could call it a "practice round" (which doesn't really exist, but if you don't play under the Rules, it's not really a legitimate round either).

Don't get me wrong, please, as I don't really care what y'all do. I just know that a lot of people will fail to post scores, and will in another breath complain about something else. I just urge everyone to follow the Rules, whether they're the Rules of Golf or the Rules of Handicapping, as the Rules generally only work best when everyone follows them.

[Pete Lavallee]

I stand corrected; thanks for the links Ian and David.


So it seems the only “unified” part of the new system is the averaging of the best 8 out of 20 scores, with a course conditions adjustment if 8 scores are turned in. UK golfers will still only post scores with a marker eor Ben in social rounds. I do like the way they are approaching this and don’t see any big problems for them in 2020.

[David Jones]

Issued July 2018
Do I have to submit every score for every round I play?
No: you will have to submit all singles competition scores, and you will have the choice to submit social/recreational scores. All scores will have to be pre- registered.’

Consider me improved in my knowledge then, and add another point to the "don't assume" bucket.

No problem! I suspect it will take quite a few iterations to get it right over here and a bit of getting used to.


I’m slightly worried about the impact on pace of play if people do hole out in every friendly match if they are putting cards in but I guess we’ll find out. I managed 2 hours and 10 minutes for 18 at Archerfield with a friend last week but we were picking up within a couple of feet. Definitely not always gimmes for me alas!


Does everyone always hole out everything in the US given they’re always putting a card in?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I’m slightly worried about the impact on pace of play if people do hole out in every friendly match if they are putting cards in but I guess we’ll find out. I managed 2 hours and 10 minutes for 18 at Archerfield with a friend last week but we were picking up within a couple of feet. Definitely not always gimmes for me alas!

You can always estimate your score. If you're out of the hole with a 20 footer, add two and post that. Got a three-footer, add one.

[Jeff Schley]

I’m slightly worried about the impact on pace of play if people do hole out in every friendly match if they are putting cards in but I guess we’ll find out. I managed 2 hours and 10 minutes for 18 at Archerfield with a friend last week but we were picking up within a couple of feet. Definitely not always gimmes for me alas!

You can always estimate your score. If you're out of the hole with a 20 footer, add two and post that. Got a three-footer, add one.

Most probable score IIRC.

[Michael Whitaker]

There is no reason for all this angst! 

If you play a casual round and do not adhere strictly to the “Rules of Golf” then the round does not qualify to be posted. So... if you take a “breakfast ball” on the first tee the round becomes non-postable. If you “roll a ball over” because of a divot (for example) the round becomes non-postable. If you do anything that deviates from the strict “Rules of Golf” your round becomes non-postable. How many of YOUR casual rounds would fall into this category? Quite a few, I would guess.


Probably, for most, the only time you absolutely adhere to the “Rules of Golf” is when you play in a comp or have a “serious” game with your mates.

That’s why you guys are blowing this way out of proportion!!!

[Michael Whitaker]

And, as for not finishing a hole due to match play or best ball events:

Q. If a player does not finish a hole or is conceded a stroke, what should the player record?
A. The player shall record his "most likely score."

Q.What is the "most likely score" a player should record on a hole that is not finished or that is conceded?
A. The most likely score consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in his best judgment, the number of strokes that the player would need to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. For example, a player lies five when he picks up on the green. The player will record a score of five plus the number of putts the player thinks he or she would have taken. This "most likely score" is subject to reduction under the Equitable Stroke Control (ESC) procedure. For example, a player may record a "most likely score" of eight, but if the player's Equitable Stroke Control maximum is seven, then seven is the score that shall be turned in for handicap purposes.

Q. Should a "most likely score" score be recorded on a hole not finished in a best ball event
A. Yes.

Q. What is the hole score a player would record on a hole that is not played or is not played under the principles of the Rules of Golf?
A. The hole score is par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on the hole. For example, a player with a Course Handicap of 10 receives handicap strokes on the first 10 handicap stroke holes. Suppose the player quits after playing 13 holes. For any of the holes 14-18 that are handicap stroke holes for this player, the player shall record a score of par plus one. For any hole on which the player receives no handicap strokes, the hole score shall be recorded as par.

[MClutterbuck]

I won’t be posting casual rounds. Guess I’ll need to read what that really means but I can see myself rebelling.

Same here as well. I don't want to record the max double bogey score and would rather put in my true score.


Most of the social games in the UK is matchplay for a couple of quid. Plus if lost the hole without scoring ball is picked up and move on to the next hole without wasting time finishing the hole for the sake of scoring card wise.

Max double bogey if you are a scratch player...

[Erik J. Barzeski]

If you play a casual round and do not adhere strictly to the “Rules of Golf” then the round does not qualify to be posted. So... if you take a “breakfast ball” on the first tee the round becomes non-postable. If you “roll a ball over” because of a divot (for example) the round becomes non-postable. If you do anything that deviates from the strict “Rules of Golf” your round becomes non-postable. How many of YOUR casual rounds would fall into this category? Quite a few, I would guess.

That's not accurate at all. At the simplest level, you can discard a few holes and you'll still have played a minimum number of holes played to take par + handicap on the holes in which you blatantly violated the Rules.

Of course if you were being facetious or joking around, apologies for responding somewhat seriously.

[Garland Bayley]

Far from it.  I read that and learn that if I go up to the club on my own for a quick 9 holes I have to post a score, and it counts every bit as much as a round played in the club championship. 

If you go and play alone, you aren't "allowed" to post the score. BUT, since you can post online with no witnesses you can actually post the score, or even a sandbagger adjustment to the score.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Does everyone always hole out everything in the US given they’re always putting a card in?

No, but the handicap rules allow for that in match play. You are to estimate. If you think better than 50% of holing estimate holed. Over 50% estimate two strokes.

If a hole is conceded before reaching green. Estimate! If a hole is not played at all. Apply score using handicap adjustment.

I once had a match with a truly vane person. I reached green in 3 he in 5. I putted first to tap in range. He conceded hole while still lying 30 feet from the hole. I told him I was taking a 5 and giving him a 7. He grabbed the scorecard from my hands and told me he would rip it up if i didn't agree to give him a 6. His wife was friends with a woman I played some competitions with, so I had chances to have dinner with them. His wife ridiculed him constantly about his vanity handicap, but yet he persisted.

[Sean_A]

Two points.


1. The posting of all scores vs competition scores is a slippery slope. I will bet dollars to dimes that the eventual goal is for all golfers to be theoretically posting the same way. That means eventually, GB&I will be expected to post recreational scores. This new system is being introduced in stages.


2. Estimating a score for shots not played is bollocks.


Ciao

[Michael Whitaker]

Estimating a score for shots not played is bollocks.

It just helps keep the posted score down and not inflated... and, keeps things moving.

Remember, only half of your posted scores count in the calculation of your handicap... and it is the better half. So, your handicap should always be you at your best, not you at your worst which is what the CONGU system seems to be offering (although I’m probably wrong about that, which will pointed out in due haste I’m sure  ).

[Garland Bayley]

It seems to me that the largest usage of handicap is outside of competitions to play socially for perhaps a small wager. Therefore, it makes sense to me that "social" rounds, or at least those where you declare you will be posting the result should be used in the calculation. It also seems to me that such handicaps don't hold up very well in competition. There is more pressure playing for even a small prize purse and recognition as a competition star than for a couple of bucks from your buddy.

It would seem that handicaps are good approximations within a single system, but when they come from different systems, they are not equitable. Therefore, I applaud the effort to get to a single world wide system.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Two points.


1. The posting of all scores vs competition scores is a slippery slope. I will bet dollars to dimes that the eventual goal is for all golfers to be theoretically posting the same way. That means eventually, GB&I will be expected to post recreational scores. This new system is being introduced in stages.


2. Estimating a score for shots not played is bollocks.


Ciao

You got there before me on the second point, Sean. What a ridiculous system.

[Jon Wiggett]

Talk about changing my mind. I think the system of tournament scores and pre-declared rounds counting is very sensible. As for estimated scores  What numpty thought that was a good idea.

[Garland Bayley]

That "numpty" would Dr. Dean Knuth, who I believe is more qualified to determine a handicap system than any poster here.

For the rest of you, "Don't knock it if you haven't tried it!"

[Jon Wiggett]

Garland,


if that is his idea then I would beg to differ. What gives him this mythical insight then?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

if that is his idea then I would beg to differ. What gives him this mythical insight then?

You can look up a lot of that info for yourself here: http://popeofslope.com .

[Pete Lavallee]

Dean “the Pope of Slope” Knuth invented the slope system, which you are adopting next year!

[Jon Wiggett]

if that is his idea then I would beg to differ. What gives him this mythical insight then?

You can look up a lot of that info for yourself here: http://popeofslope.com .

He is obviously well versed in the golf industry especially in club design. Never rated the slope system though, great in theory, hopelessly flawed in practice.


However, predictive scoring by the player themselves is still a stupid idea in my opinion.

[Garland Bayley]

Jon,

It is statistics. I believe the Pope has the collected data to show what you call "predictive" scoring is basically irrelevant to the handicap that gets calculated.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

He is obviously well versed in the golf industry especially in club design. Never rated the slope system though, great in theory, hopelessly flawed in practice.

I'd love to see you (or anyone else who dislikes the handicap system) come up with something better that's at least similarly complex (boils down a course into two numbers - the scratch and bogey rating, which we translate into the course rating and slope).

The handicap system works pretty well while staying pretty simple.

Good luck.

[Jon Wiggett]

Garland,


I am not sure what you mean If it is irrelevant then why do it?


Erik,


I very much doubt anyone could come up with a better system that is at least as complex as it. That in a way is part of the problem, it is too complex and too clever to actually work.


Handicap is there to try and even out the playing field between golfers playing a strokeplay round. It is not there to try and even out the various courses or even the same course for the whole field through the day. The US system has forgotten the former and tried to do the latter which is a 'fool's errand'.


Handicap is not the goal of playing but rather the result this is what has been misunderstood by the USGA and R&A. I am afraid that they have come to believe they understand the game so well that they neglect to check that what they are doing is actually logical. Were they to they would have to come to the conclusion they have gotten it wrong.


Erilk, according to you the handicap system is complex and simple at the same time. I rest my case!!!

[Wayne_Kozun]

What are you supposed to do when you play an occasional round with hickories?  Technically, at least in NA, you are supposed to post the score, are you not?  But that could skew your handicap compared to playing with modern clubs.