Bethpage Black is not a great course

[Nick Ribeiro]

Tom … Id like to hear your thoughts regarding Bethpage Black and where it belongs in your opinion.

His book gives it a 7/10 and hints at one of the reasons I'd play 1000 other courses (on equal terms) before I play BPB again: the six-hour rounds that are common there.

I believe that rating pre-dates Rees, though. Could be wrong on that part, though.

You never said the six hour rounds are why you'd play 1,000 other courses but you did say its not in your top 500. You also claimed you've played 150 rounds by memory but maybe 200-250.
https://refuge.nolayingup.com/t/how-many-golf-courses-have-you-played/6926/2
So you've put 250 courses you've never played ahead of Bethpage, or maybe up to 350 courses you've never played.
So there is obvious anger and bias towards Bethpage, I just want to know why?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

You never said the six hour rounds are why you'd play 1,000 other courses

I never gave any of the reasons (except that I have a lower opinion of the course itself than you do). Some of them are personal and/or nostalgic. Some of them are because I've not played the other courses and I'd like to see them for the first time before I see BPB for the 11th time (or whatever). You repeatedly misread that post as me saying "I rate 1000 courses ahead of BPB" when I never said that (and I pointed this out several times). Six hour rounds are another of the reasons I'd rather play elsewhere than BPB. And… not all the same reasons apply to all 1000 courses. Oakmont is a favorite of mine, and I'd endure a six-hour round there before I'd play a five-hour round at BPB.

but you did say its not in your top 500.

No, technically I said it's probably not in my top 500. As I've not played 500 courses, I can't say for sure whether it's in my top 500 or not. But, based on a number of things (testimonials of friends, reviews, photos, discussions here at GCA, all sorts of things) I can make an estimate that, for example, I'm likely to rate Cal Club over BPB.

You also claimed you've played 150 rounds by memory but maybe 200-250.

I claimed 150 in my spreadsheet opening it up twice (for about 30 minutes total) and adding stuff to it.

So you've put 250 courses you've never played ahead of Bethpage

Yep. To go back to my prior example, I've never played Cal Club. I don't think it's on the top 100 list. I'd rather play that then BPB. Especially the first time. And, having read a lot about it, and with some close friends having played it, I think I'd also rate it above BPB once I've played it.

So there is obvious anger and bias towards Bethpage, I just want to know why?

Anger? Over a golf course? No. The only one who appears to be angry throughout this discussion is you, with your insults and whatnot. No "bias" either, except what I'd more accurately call "my opinion" that I don't particularly like the course. It's just my opinion - I don't like how boring the course is, I don't like the near complete lack of strategy, or recovery shot potential. I don't like how little you have to think about things or make decisions. I don't like the six-hour pace of play (caused in large part by the narrow fairways and thick rough). I don't like the same-old-same-old greens.

[Kyle Harris]

Red is a more thorough examination than Black, to me, but it's not necessarily more difficult. For one, the tee shots on Red are more thoroughly interesting (not as good as the best on Black but not as bad as the worse -Black #5 is incredible, but tee shots on #10, 13, 15, 16 are meh. Red at least has a little bit of tension on every tee ball).

I prefer the Red to the Black Course.

Red is also curious in the case of Bethpage as a whole in the sense that it has the only hole where trees have encroached on an original intended line of play. #6 was meant to be a short, almost driveable par-4, with a direct line available from tee-to-green. The trees on the hillside between #5 and 6 prohibit that now.

[corey miller]

Perhaps Ran should kick off those that are "loathsome"?

[Mark Fedeli]

Red is a more thorough examination than Black, to me, but it's not necessarily more difficult. For one, the tee shots on Red are more thoroughly interesting (not as good as the best on Black but not as bad as the worse -Black #5 is incredible, but tee shots on #10, 13, 15, 16 are meh. Red at least has a little bit of tension on every tee ball).

I prefer the Red to the Black Course.

Red is also curious in the case of Bethpage as a whole in the sense that it has the only hole where trees have encroached on an original intended line of play. #6 was meant to be a short, almost driveable par-4, with a direct line available from tee-to-green. The trees on the hillside between #5 and 6 prohibit that now.

Great point about #6. I'd love to see the tree (and the crevice that creeps out from beneath it across the fairway) changed to bunkers. Force people to lay-up short or go for it. A lay-up there is no picnic. That green is so subtly challenging and visually deceiving. I can't count the amount of times I didn't trust my eyes or yardage. And with the slopes in the back, it doesn't take much to roll long.

[Nick Ribeiro]

Perhaps Ran should kick off those that are "loathsome"?

Ran runs a reputable discussion group where members are allowed to disagree. Not a cult where anyone who disagrees is shunned.

[Kalen Braley]

Nick,


I don't think anyone has a major issue with your viewpoints concerning GCA, even if most of us don't agree with them...its the personal attacks and mis-characterizations they aren't a fan of.

[Nick Ribeiro]

Nick,


I don't think anyone has a major issue with your viewpoints concerning GCA, even if most of us don't agree with them...its the personal attacks and mis-characterizations they aren't a fan of.

I agree, scroll back to the beginning where the course was called bastardized and the designer was called terrible.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I agree, scroll back to the beginning where the course was called bastardized and the designer was called terrible.

Oh geez.

The OP used the word "bastardized" to talk about a few specific holes, and it was Tim on page 5 that called Rees "terrible." Nobody's called the original designers (Burbeck, mostly) "terrible."

If you think Rees Jones is a great architect, why, that merits a discussion of its own, and likely one that you also won't like.

And Nick, c'mon man, he was clearly referring to your personal attacks and your constant mis-quoting.


---------

None of this advances the topic, so how about we get back to it?

[Will Lozier]

Nick:

Whether anyone thinks Bethpage Black is a “great” course is 100% a matter of subjective opinion.

After my travels of the past two weeks, I can say it would comfortably be the best course in Kenya or Zambia, but that’s not saying much.

Your inability to accept that others might not all agree with your own opinion has gone from laughable to tiresome to irksome over the course of eight pages.  What adjective are you gunning for?  I think you are only a page or two away from loathsome, and it will be very hard to come back from there.

Allelujah!

Will - What a thoughtful response while quoting someone else....

So sorry that my font size was so small...I think I was laughing too hard to notice. I can assure you, my response was completely genuine and didn't need more than one word. I was praising Tom for saying what most here are thinking in such a straightforward and concise manner. My own thoughts on your tone are far less polite.


You think so highly of yourself and your opinions, I don't see a need to try to change your mind about anything by making the same valid points that so many others are making - you wouldn't dare consider them. You could claim Bethpage Black to be THE greatest course on the planet for all I care. More power to you. Others with more experience and knowledge judge overall quality by different parameters. It's ok to be wrong, or just different.


As a former PGA Apprentice, I used to think difficult = great too. I've just learned, many years later, that I was wrong. Lighten up, be honest, respect others, and be more empathic. You'll soon be wiser for it.


Cheers,
Will

[Anthony Butler]

I would also add (and I am a little afraid with Nick lurking)  that Pine Valley for "ME" is hard because of original design intent and Bethpage is "more hard and less fun" because of maintenance decisions rather than design intent. 

Corey - Perhaps the only maintenance decision that would make Pine Valley play easier would be to significantly slow the speed of the greens, so every green-side recovery shot (even the good ones) doesn't end up 25+ ft away from the hole.

[Anthony Butler]

Nick:

Your inability to accept that others might not all agree with your own opinion has gone from laughable to tiresome to irksome over the course of eight pages.  What adjective are you gunning for?  I think you are only a page or two away from loathsome, and it will be very hard to come back from there.

On the other hand, he might be the only Golf Club Atlas Member to go from Jr. to YaBB God status in the course of just one thread. ;-)

[Michael Felton]

I'd guess you're about 20 feet below the green and if the flag is at the back, you're about 40-50 yards away too.

Google Earth says you're about 12 feet and you don't have to hit it 40 yards to the back of the green, you just have to get it on the green to 30 feet so you can two-putt.




Also if the pin's in the back and you're in the very front of that right bunker, you were WAY off on your approach shot yardage.

Three things.

One, not sure if you've seen the TV this week, but those bunkers are steep. If you land anywhere in them you're rolling back to the back of them.

Two, when hitting a 3 or 4 iron from substantially below the green surface, the ball doesn't tend to stop very quickly and going long there is no bueno, so even if the flag is at the back you still want to land it on the front.

Three, there is a tier in that green, right around where the end of your yellow line is. If the ball gets to there it's coming back down it and will finish pretty close to the front edge of the green. That's why I said you'd often be putting from the front.

I'll take your word for it on the 12 feet. It feels like a lot and there's a lot of sand to carry too.

[Michael Felton]

Red is a more thorough examination than Black, to me, but it's not necessarily more difficult. For one, the tee shots on Red are more thoroughly interesting (not as good as the best on Black but not as bad as the worse -Black #5 is incredible, but tee shots on #10, 13, 15, 16 are meh. Red at least has a little bit of tension on every tee ball).

I prefer the Red to the Black Course.

Red is also curious in the case of Bethpage as a whole in the sense that it has the only hole where trees have encroached on an original intended line of play. #6 was meant to be a short, almost driveable par-4, with a direct line available from tee-to-green. The trees on the hillside between #5 and 6 prohibit that now.

Great point about #6. I'd love to see the tree (and the crevice that creeps out from beneath it across the fairway) changed to bunkers. Force people to lay-up short or go for it. A lay-up there is no picnic. That green is so subtly challenging and visually deceiving. I can't count the amount of times I didn't trust my eyes or yardage. And with the slopes in the back, it doesn't take much to roll long.

This is a great point. 6 is a fiendish little bugger. The yardage issue you describe makes it very hard to commit to your approach shot. My pitching game goes to pieces on that hole. Not sure that you need do much other than cut the trees down. The banking down there and humps and hollows will cause ample trouble if you go for it and fail. Mark - did you mean to have the bunkers come out into the fairway and force the layup at around 200 yards rather than just the fairway out to the right?

[Mark Fedeli]

Red is a more thorough examination than Black, to me, but it's not necessarily more difficult. For one, the tee shots on Red are more thoroughly interesting (not as good as the best on Black but not as bad as the worse -Black #5 is incredible, but tee shots on #10, 13, 15, 16 are meh. Red at least has a little bit of tension on every tee ball).

I prefer the Red to the Black Course.

Red is also curious in the case of Bethpage as a whole in the sense that it has the only hole where trees have encroached on an original intended line of play. #6 was meant to be a short, almost driveable par-4, with a direct line available from tee-to-green. The trees on the hillside between #5 and 6 prohibit that now.

Great point about #6. I'd love to see the tree (and the crevice that creeps out from beneath it across the fairway) changed to bunkers. Force people to lay-up short or go for it. A lay-up there is no picnic. That green is so subtly challenging and visually deceiving. I can't count the amount of times I didn't trust my eyes or yardage. And with the slopes in the back, it doesn't take much to roll long.

This is a great point. 6 is a fiendish little bugger. The yardage issue you describe makes it very hard to commit to your approach shot. My pitching game goes to pieces on that hole. Not sure that you need do much other than cut the trees down. The banking down there and humps and hollows will cause ample trouble if you go for it and fail. Mark - did you mean to have the bunkers come out into the fairway and force the layup at around 200 yards rather than just the fairway out to the right?

It definitely doesn’t need a bunker, but there’s that big dip on the left side of the fairway, under the tree. It would be cool if that were a bunker so it forced people to make a decision on the tee. 1. Go for it on line with the green, but have to clear the bunker. 2. Lay back short of the bunker and have like 150 yards in. 3. Try to go right of the bunker to have more like 100 in.


That third option is basically driver/3 wood distance for many, and I think they’ll be eager to risk it if they aren’t confident they can clear the hazard. Mainly because the second option leaves a scary shot for that green. It’s also hard for a lot of people to lay back that much on such a short hole.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

One, not sure if you've seen the TV this week, but those bunkers are steep. If you land anywhere in them you're rolling back to the back of them.

I measured from the very back, even though the ball would likely settle at the bottom (more in the middle), not the back.

Two, when hitting a 3 or 4 iron from substantially below the green surface, the ball doesn't tend to stop very quickly and going long there is no bueno, so even if the flag is at the back you still want to land it on the front.

If you're horrible out of a bunker going long is better than hitting it into the bunker. And I thought they were hitting a hybrid, but whatever…?

I'll take your word for it on the 12 feet. It feels like a lot and there's a lot of sand to carry too.

Not my word. Just about the most I could get from Google Earth, to the top of the tier.

[Bill Brightly]

On the other hand, he might... go from Jr. to YaBB God status ...

I'm shorting that position

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Bethpage Black putting on a great show- what a great test for the best players in the world- and yet Jason Caron who carries the ball 265-280 shoots 70 yesterday- dusted Bubba Watson.


It must be surprising to those who feel the greens are flat to watch the best players in the world struggle on the greens that are absolutely MINT-


Tournament golf needs  GOURMET CHOICE - and the Black represents the stern, straightforward test played over big time scale that puts a premium on good hard hitting, big league recovery, and resolve amidst the inevitable lay up situation.


ANGC allows for imagination and options for shot making because of the great width and lack of tall rough- the greens put the premium on being in position- and year after year identifies a great champion. The Black is not ANGC- that's ok! The Black serves a different purpose- a different exam.

[Nick Ribeiro]

Bethpage Black putting on a great show- what a great test for the best players in the world- and yet Jason Caron who carries the ball 265-280 shoots 70 yesterday- dusted Bubba Watson.


It must be surprising to those who feel the greens are flat to watch the best players in the world struggle on the greens that are absolutely MINT-


Tournament golf needs  GOURMET CHOICE - and the Black represents the stern, straightforward test played over big time scale that puts a premium on good hard hitting, big league recovery, and resolve amidst the inevitable lay up situation.


ANGC allows for imagination and options for shot making because of the great width and lack of tall rough- the greens put the premium on being in position- and year after year identifies a great champion. The Black is not ANGC- that's ok! The Black serves a different purpose- a different exam.

Very good points. GOURMET CHOICE, I can dig that! No mass produced happy meals here! 
Variety is great! We already have an Old Course, no need for a replica over what already is a great course and special design!

[Tom_Doak]

Tournament golf needs  GOURMET CHOICE - and the Black represents the stern, straightforward test played over big time scale that puts a premium on good hard hitting, big league recovery, and resolve amidst the inevitable lay up situation.

ANGC allows for imagination and options for shot making because of the great width and lack of tall rough- the greens put the premium on being in position- and year after year identifies a great champion. The Black is not ANGC- that's ok! The Black serves a different purpose- a different exam.

Damn it, I should have trademarked that section of my books.   


It's been a long time since I was back out on the Black course; you can trace that to it not fitting my game at all.  Looking back at highlights yesterday, I was dumbstruck at how many of the holes have no short grass at all on the approach.  There are SEVEN par-4 holes [2, 5, 6, 9, 10, 15, 18] where your only option is to fly the ball onto the green.  By comparison, Pine Valley, which is noted for "target golf", only has four, and three of them are its short par-4's.


The upshot of that is that if you're a short hitter who has to hit long clubs into the greens, you are dead meat.


Does that disqualify it as a great course?  Well, it's all a matter of opinion.   

[Tim Martin]

How far would widening the mowing lines, thin out and/or step cuts of rough and reclaiming some runoffs or short grass around green entrances as Tom Doak suggested go to satisfying those that are presently disillusioned with the golf course? In general terms what else would be required?

[Nick Ribeiro]

How far would widening the mowing lines, thin out and/or step cuts of rough and reclaiming some runoffs or short grass around green entrances as Tom Doak suggested go to satisfying those that are presently disillusioned with the golf course? In general terms what else would be required?

"The most famous characteristic of the Black is its punishing nature, and this was very much the original design intent."  Thomas Dunne"

It was Burbeck's idea to develop one of these (Bethpage) layouts along lines which were to be severe to a marked degree.  It was his ambition to have something which might compare with Pine Valley as a great test..."  AW Tillinghast

Do you care at all about history? Or no, just want it easier also?

[Tim Martin]

How far would widening the mowing lines, thin out and/or step cuts of rough and reclaiming some runoffs or short grass around green entrances as Tom Doak suggested go to satisfying those that are presently disillusioned with the golf course? In general terms what else would be required?

"The most famous characteristic of the Black is its punishing nature, and this was very much the original design intent."  Thomas Dunne"

It was Burbeck's idea to develop one of these (Bethpage) layouts along lines which were to be severe to a marked degree.  It was his ambition to have something which might compare with Pine Valley as a great test..."  AW Tillinghast

Do you care at all about history? Or no, just want it easier also?

Nick-I didn’t take the other side of the argument in that post or any other contained in this thread. My question was to the original poster and those that have lined up on the same side of the argument as to whether from their perspective the aforementioned changes and/or others would sway their opinion of BPB. Finally in their opinion could it achieve “greatness” or was it never great to begin with.

[Tom_Doak]

How far would widening the mowing lines, thin out and/or step cuts of rough and reclaiming some runoffs or short grass around green entrances as Tom Doak suggested go to satisfying those that are presently disillusioned with the golf course? In general terms what else would be required?

"The most famous characteristic of the Black is its punishing nature, and this was very much the original design intent."  Thomas Dunne"

It was Burbeck's idea to develop one of these (Bethpage) layouts along lines which were to be severe to a marked degree.  It was his ambition to have something which might compare with Pine Valley as a great test..."  AW Tillinghast

Do you care at all about history? Or no, just want it easier also?

Nick-I didn’t take the other side of the argument in that post or any other contained in this thread. My question was to the original poster and those that have lined up on the same side of the argument as to whether from their perspective the aforementioned changes and/or others would sway their opinion of BPB. Finally in their opinion could it achieve “greatness” or was it never great to begin with.

You guys are not arguing about Bethpage, you are just arguing about the meaning of the word "great".


Some believe a course that only the best players can get around is better than others.  Some believe it is worse.

[Mark Fedeli]

Exactly, Tom. And the point of the thread was to discuss how people think the current set-up compares to the original presentation for everyday play. Absolutely nothing to do with how they maintain it for pro events and no judgments cast against those who relish replicating that particular challenge for themselves.


Aside from setting a bad example, I don’t care a lick if they narrow the fairways to 15 yards for the next pro event. I suspect the leaderboard would look much the same.