Challenge vs difficult

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'll hear some guys say, "Boy, that course was challenging." They meant difficult. I know a challenging course can be difficult but is there a difference? Eighteen at TOC isn't necessarily difficult but i think it is challenging to hit the second shot to the correct place on the green especially when the pin is just over the Valley of Sin.
a 450 yard par four is difficult for me now, but I don't find it necessarily challenging, except to hit two shots the required distance.

Is there a difference for you?

[jeffwarne]

Very interesting question.


I know nearly every course I hear is "challenging" I avoid and those I don't I wish I had.


Ironically, many of the courses I love are often described as "unfair"or "tricked up"-usually due to interesting greens perhaps being run at higehr speeds than designed, but often due to a lack of visibility on parts or most of the shot (for a first time player), or simply a green running away from a player.


So basically I've come to translate "challenging" as water laden, long "native" grass everywhere, or loooong, with fast-probably not too interesting- greens.
 Hit you over the head hard that modern technology may indeed make less challenging for an elite player who ends up with a wedge or short iron anyway.


and "unfair" as somehere I want to go-where the scorecard looks easy but the mental challenges and judgement matter-and modern technolgy is somewhat neutered

[Mark_Fine]

Like most things discussed/debated on this site it comes down to definition of the term/s.  How do you define challenge vs difficulty?  To some they are the same, to others not so much. 


I have talked about this here before but I think there is a difference for example between Great Tests of Golf and Great Golf Courses.  It is easy to make a golf course difficult and testing but it is much more challenging to also make it great.  I will let you dwell on that 😊

[Steve Kline]

I think there is a difference. Here are my definitions.


Difficult means lots of bogeys because the course is hard on tee and approach shots. There's generally one way to play it and if you don't pull that shot off then it's a sure bogey. Generally there is little variance in scores - some pars and lots of bogeys


Challenging is generally the result of interesting green complexes. Putting yourself in the wrong spot will likely result in a bogey but you still have the chance to pull a shot off and save par. You have to pull of the second shot to make a birdie. But, if you don't it's not an automatic bogey. But, you'll need to do something good to make par. The challenge should be more in the short game and putting since that were the data shows all golfers have the most chance to actually overcome something.


Very few golfers have the long game to make a difficult course challenging.

[Rick Lane]

I agree .  To me, difficult would be a course that asks me to hit shots that I really can’t.  For instance, playing the wrong set of tees for my ability makes the course difficult.  I once played Medinah  from too far back and had 200 in all day, and I just can’t hit a 200 yard shot high enough with spin to stop it.   I gave up and laid up a lot and tried to make par putts.


Challenging to me means it asks me to hit a shot that I CAN hit....a fade, a draw, a spinner that checks, a distance that I can handle, or even a temptation to go at a sucker pin.....I may not pull it off, but I MIGHT.   So I try.   That’s challenging to me.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I thought about this more in the dentist chair. For me challenging asks me to hit good shots. The penalty isn't a lost ball or wet ball but a more difficult par if I do not hit the shot well. Difficult asks me to hit shot after shot that I just can't with severe penalties.

[Peter Pallotta]

In the old days someone might 'challenge you to a duel'. You were free to turn down the challenge and walk away -- with the only wound being to your pride and honour. Rather civilized.

[Sean_A]

Pietro

That is how I see a challenge. I usually have the option to bail and as become less proficient at golf it is my pride which takes the biggest hit.

Difficult has become the reality of my game and I admit it is less fun these days.

Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yeah, I once wrote that the challenge of feathering a butter cut 6 iron to a tucked pin in a cross wind (as an example of a shot type) was the same whether the sand hazard guarding it was 2 or 20 foot deep, or even a water hazard.


So, if you think of design in terms of creating shots to hit, the technical side of hitting a target stays the same, regardless of penalty.  To me, those courses can be challenging, but courses with deep rough, water, deep sand, whatever are difficult.  And, yes, the mental side of the game changes a bit there, too.


Another way to think of it is that the average hazard on a challenging course only has to cost you one shot or less on average, whereas on a hard course, the hazards would cost you one shot or more, piling up your score.

[Kalen Braley]

Not sure if this is really in the scope of the question....

But the problem with this in terms of golf courses, is the range of what is challenging or difficult will be wildly different at various levels of playing ability. And it applies to pretty much every facet of the game, tee shots, layups, approaches, sand play, putting, chipping, etc.


But at least most Pros and I don't worry about a bunker at 260 yards off the tee...

[Mark_Fine]

So can someone here tell me is the 126 yard tee shot (from the main tee) to the #17 green at The TPC at Sawgrass “challenging” or “difficult”.  It is just a chip shot for many.  Heck even my 35 handicap wife can hit that shot.  Maybe it is easy 😉 or maybe it is impossible, at least for some. 


This all goes back to personal definition of the terms.  If a shot for example (any shot even a three foot putt) doesn’t have some degree of difficulty how can it be considered challenging.  By most people’s definition it would then be easy.  It is one or the other. 


Where I can see a slight definition difference for some in the use of the two words is when there is repetition of the same kind of difficult or challenging shot. 

[Sean_A]

Mark

Sure, its all subjective.  Tommy did ask what is the difference for you? 

In general when it comes to holes like TPC 17, I ask how does my grandma play that hole?  Sometimes, and it is a judgement call, I think that question is irrelevant when a great situation presents itself or if we are talking about courses designed to test the best or near best players.  Of course, it can always be debated if a course should be designed to test the best when they rarely turn up, but that is a separate question 

Ciao

[Mark_Fine]

Sean,
Yes you are correct, Tommy did ask each of us.  Point taken.  However, I still would like to hear how people would describe the 17th hole at Sawgrass?  What do you say?  What would your grandma say?  From the forward tee it is only 80 yards. 
Mark

[jeffwarne]

Sean,
Yes you are correct, Tommy did ask each of us.  Point taken.  However, I still would like to hear how people would describe the 17th hole at Sawgrass?  What do you say?  What would your grandma say?  From the forward tee it is only 80 yards. 
Mark

17 at TPC? =challenging
all 18 holes at TPC collectively?=difficult

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
I think that is the key, when you put a whole string of "challenging" holes/shots together (especially very similar ones), it moves from challenging to just plain repetitive and difficult.  Stand alone, however, I would argue that challenging and difficult shots are one and the same. 

[Sean_A]

Sean,
Yes you are correct, Tommy did ask each of us.  Point taken.  However, I still would like to hear how people would describe the 17th hole at Sawgrass?  What do you say?  What would your grandma say?  From the forward tee it is only 80 yards. 
Mark

17 at TPC? =challenging
all 18 holes at TPC collectively?=difficult
 

Jeff

Perhaps you are right.  As I say, much can be forgiven or at least understood when courses are designed for flat bellies.  That said, Painswick (definitely not for flat bellies) has a crazy par 3, the 5th, which I think is an awful hole simply because a high percentage of golfers will often not finish the hole...the rough up the hill is that bad.  I guess we call it sporty?  I call it bad design. Shikine has the Crow's Nest(?) par 3 as well...its a wild ride, but an awful hole when I was there.  I am told the rough is far more under control these days making the hole more enjoyable for more players.

Ciao

[Adam Clayman]

Sean, How does poor rough transfer to poor design?

[Sean_A]

Sean, How does poor rough transfer to poor design?

How exactly is grass on a large hill to be kept reasonably in check? I strongly suspect the grass was never kept at a playable height. Choosing that severe ground is architecture.


Ciao

[Bruce Katona]

Difficult is a forced carry at a length just at the golfer's range of ability.......not making the carry will cause the shot to be in tall grass/sand or wet....and adding strokes to score quickly since a recovery is difficult or will require scuba gear.


Challenging is giving players multiple routes and options to play holes.....the more you make the player think, the more you get into their head; making the game better IMHO.

[David Druzisky]

I thought about this more in the dentist chair. For me challenging asks me to hit good shots. The penalty isn't a lost ball or wet ball but a more difficult par if I do not hit the shot well. Difficult asks me to hit shot after shot that I just can't with severe penalties.

This.


I need to schedule a visit to the dentist next time I am wrapped up mentally in some design work apparently.

[Thomas Dai]

Difficult, a shot I’m unlikely to pull off.
Challenging, a shot I may pull off (particularly if I use my brain beforehand).
Atb

[Mark_Fine]

So it sounds like everyone here would say #17 at The TPC Sawgrass is challenging but not difficult?  As such, I am trying to think which holes would be considered difficult on that golf course if #17 is not (assuming one plays the correct set of tees)??  Can't think of a single one that requires some crazy carry off the tee or has death all around it more so than #17?  Must be just a challenging golf course but not too difficult 

[Jim Sherma]

Tommy - I would love to hear your comments on this as it relates to Ballyhack. A course that I know we are both familiar with and one that certainly has different shots that fall across the spectrum that is being discussed here. BTW I'll be down there with some guys 5/9-11 if you happen to be around.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy - I would love to hear your comments on this as it relates to Ballyhack. A course that I know we are both familiar with and one that certainly has different shots that fall across the spectrum that is being discussed here. BTW I'll be down there with some guys 5/9-11 if you happen to be around.

Good question. I've thought about it a lot. The first hole is challenging but maybe not difficult. The tee shot looks scary because of the forced carry but the fairway is miles wide and the carry isn't as long as it appears, except from the way back tees. The it is terrifying. The second shot is to a difficult green and is uphill but less than 150 yards. It is challenging to hit it near the pin. The third hole is just plain difficult. The green is among the most undulating and the course. As I look at the entire course it is full of challenging shots but overall it is just plain difficult. The fun of the course is to try to decide what the hole requires then try to figure out what your particular set of skills will allow.

[Jim Sherma]

Here is my breakdown using Ballyhack as the reference. I think of challenging as shots that ask a question that I have the skill to execute if I hit a good shot and usually include a bail out that I can play my miss to if I don't take the challenge on too directly. Difficult on the other hand is a shot that I know I can pull off if everything works out but I know that my dispersion pattern makes the eventual outcome have more chance than skill, also these usually do not have a bail out to work the likely miss towards.


Difficult shots at Ballyhack given these definitions and my skill set:


Tee shot on 3rd hole: As Tommy said - severe green that leaves likely bogies from even decently struck near misses if you end up releasing down the wrong slopes - from the back few tees this is a very difficult hole


Tee shot on number 12: Bunkers right and left - difficult shot that requires precision with no side to bail out to - less demanding than it was at one time when there was ball eating gunch on both sides of the fairway


Approach on 16: Depending on the tee shot and tees played I seem to have between 140-200. Green is angled away from left to right with no good misses other than fairway short of the green. More forgiving since the rough uphill from the green on the left and long is now more playable.


To counter this with some shots that I view as especially challenging and why:


Approach to 2: Green slopes to back left and shots tend not to hold well (at least mine tend not to) - Depending on where you left your second and where the hole is relative to the lion's mouth bunker there are many ways to play the shot given the usual fast and firm conditions. Generally you can always chip or pitch something that will put you on the green but not necessarily close.


Approach to 4: The three distinct areas of the green (front left - back left bowl and upper right tier) and the difficulty two putting across the transitions this shot is very demanding with a lot of decisions as to how to flight the ball in given the slope of where you left your drive. If pin is front left there is plenty of room to lay up and leave a decent chip - back right you can play long and leave a decent chip or run one back there right to left across the green - right shelf is the most difficult but you can bail into the lower part of the green and try to two putt up the hill.


Approach to 18: All uphill to a huge green. Figuring out the right club and how you want to try to flight the ball up the hill and usually under or around the big tree is always interesting. Large space to hit into, but tough to get on the correct part of the green unless the hole is in the swale.


I could have named many more challenging shots on the course - in my mind they involve a decision as to how precise I want to attempt to be with a side or distance that I can hedge to either through shot shape or club selection. Difficult on the other hand is a shot that asks for an answer with no real hedge available, you either execute the shot or deal with the consequence without the option of a hedge.

Tommy - I would love to hear your comments on this as it relates to Ballyhack. A course that I know we are both familiar with and one that certainly has different shots that fall across the spectrum that is being discussed here. BTW I'll be down there with some guys 5/9-11 if you happen to be around.

Good question. I've thought about it a lot. The first hole is challenging but maybe not difficult. The tee shot looks scary because of the forced carry but the fairway is miles wide and the carry isn't as long as it appears, except from the way back tees. The it is terrifying. The second shot is to a difficult green and is uphill but less than 150 yards. It is challenging to hit it near the pin. The third hole is just plain difficult. The green is among the most undulating and the course. As I look at the entire course it is full of challenging shots but overall it is just plain difficult. The fun of the course is to try to decide what the hole requires then try to figure out what your particular set of skills will allow.