Pine Valley #12 redesign? Well done or not?

[Dan Herrmann]

We spent some time at my club's Green Committee meeting last night talking about Pine Valley #12's redesign by Fazio.   One guy said that he thought that Fazio blew it and ruined the hole.


I have no idea if that's true, having not seen the changes.


So - was the redesign of PV 12 a success?

[Ryan Farrow]

No.

[Keith Phillips]

Ryan, well said.  Very succinct and to the point.   

[John Connolly]

What was done?

[Kalen Braley]

I'm interested to see what was done as well.

Pics or it didn't happen. 

[archie_struthers]

 


 I've not been there since it was done and have only seen pictures. 


But I always wanted to see them take out all the trees on the left, every one of them all the way to the green.  Tom Paul and I talked about it for years. This would have exposed at least twenty five little bunkers and a minefield of little swales, ditches and rough terrain. This would also broaden the visual making it harder to see the line to the fairway. There is a big  tree about 290-300 yards straight out which is the aim spot for most mortals.


However the bombers no doubt would love to take a rip at this green and given the difficulty to hold it would make some pretty bad mistakes if invited. The back bunker might need a little tweaking but maybe not, its fairly difficult given the propensity for downhill lies in that pit for a shot running thru the green. Anything hooked to the left could be really scary.


When I was there the trees steered you to the right, in fact the further right and longer you hit it the easier the shot tended to be. It gave a full view of the green and if lucky a 85-100 yard shot. As you get closer the shot requires a little more skill as the green slopes front to back and without spin, oops. 


Perhaps the visual today is too sandy, but again pictures can fool you.

[Marty Bonnar]

This:
https://images.app.goo.gl/k7xz5FZtmkj77TJY8

[Kalen Braley]

Thanks for posting that.

Here is a side by side comparison.

Screenshot from Google Earth, from I'm guessing in the last few years...



After

[Ryan Carey]

Those aerials are phenomenal, but fail to show that you’re essentially dead if you hit your ball anywhere left. It’s tremendously penal.


And I still can’t figure out why the sand is a strikingly different color than anywhere else on the course. Who cares? Sure, but it doesn’t help the (visual) flow of a course that flows about as well as any other.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

And I still can’t figure out why the sand is a strikingly different color than anywhere else on the course. Who cares? Sure, but it doesn’t help the (visual) flow of a course that flows about as well as any other.

Pine Valley is built on sand. The native sand changes color throughout the property depending on the sand seam and depth. The sand on 12/13 was always more brown than some of the other holes. Over time it bleaches out to a lighter brown on the surface. 

[Ronald Montesano]

And I still can’t figure out why the sand is a strikingly different color than anywhere else on the course. Who cares? Sure, but it doesn’t help the (visual) flow of a course that flows about as well as any other.

Pine Valley is built on sand. The native sand changes color throughout the property depending on the sand seam and depth. The sand on 12/13 was always more brown than some of the other holes. Over time it bleaches out to a lighter brown on the surface. 

[Ronald Montesano]

I don't suspect I'll ever set foot on this property, so here goes...


Does the bunker style sit well with the remainder of the membership? If so, there are a few paintings around the world that this architect should have a go at re-inventing.


Does it look as ... ahem ... cough ... lumbering on the ground as it does from above? I'd have used maladroit, but L comes before M.


Nice to know that the sand was not purchased on closeout from Lowe's, but that it is natural and will adopt the tones found around the property.


Now for those in the know: the fairway looks altered. Is it flattish, or does it kick from right to left, toward the sand? It seems to have been re-angled, giving more room right, with the affectation of playing easier.


Was sand the better option up the left, as AS suggests above? It now looks like sand is the only feature on the hole, and the fairway and green are just a part of its time on earth.

[Nate Oxman]

 I've not been there since it was done and have only seen pictures.




But I always wanted to see them take out all the trees on the left, every one of them all the way to the green. This would have exposed at least twenty five little bunkers and a minefield of little swales, ditches and rough terrain. This would also broaden the visual making it harder to see the line to the fairway. There is a big  tree about 290-300 yards straight out which is the aim spot for most mortals.


However the bombers no doubt would love to take a rip at this green and given the difficulty to hold it would make some pretty bad mistakes if invited. The back bunker might need a little tweaking but maybe not, its fairly difficult as is given the propensity for downhill lies for a shot running thru the green. Anything hooked to the left could be really sca


When I was there the trees steered you to the right, in fact the further right and longer you hit it the easier the shot tended to be. It gave a full view of the green and if lucky a 85-100 yard shot. As you get closer the shot requires a little more skill as the green slopes front to back and without spin, oops. 


Perhaps the visual today is too sandy, but again pictures can fool you.

I think Archie is right. Standing on the tee, the new sandy stretch up the left appears way too sandy in my opinion. And for me, the different color only added to that. I'm glad, too, that it will lighten over time, but why not, as Archie said, just remove those trees and expose the cool stuff already there? I'm not sure what Fazio's work accomplished as most players already favored the right side. I remember the trees steering me right pre-work and I would think exposing "at least twenty five little bunkers and a minefield of little swales, ditches and rough terrain" would do that as well, while enhancing the visual. I don't think Fazio's work steered me any further right or was any more intimidating than the trees were and it definitely didn't make the view from the tee more enjoyable. Maybe the contrast between before and after was just too great.

[Kalen Braley]

Looks like he completely redid all the bunkering in that area after removing the trees.


There is certainly no money in doing less and just exposing what is there right? 

[Joel_Stewart]

Does the bunker style sit well with the remainder of the membership?

I showed the photo to a member and he didn't think it looked natural. He doesn't think the sand area at the 5th hole looks natural either so Fazio is consistent.


I'm not sure the powers at Pine Valley really care what the members think. Fazio has been on the board for so long it appears he has a grip and basically has Carte Blanche.

[MCirba]

What was difficult about just removing the trees and shoring up the bunkers that were originally built?   

I've walked through there several times and the cool little lunar-scape was just needing to see the sun again, in my humble opinion.

[Dan Herrmann]

What was difficult about just removing the trees and shoring up the bunkers that were originally built?   

I've walked through there several times and the cool little lunar-scape was just needing to see the sun again, in my humble opinion.

Exactly my thoughts.    How many great courses will Fazio mess up?

[Ryan Farrow]

From my limited experience with sandy sites the color seems to get get bleached out by the sun over time. My guess is the orange color will eventually turn white over time.

[Kalen Braley]

What was difficult about just removing the trees and shoring up the bunkers that were originally built?   

I've walked through there several times and the cool little lunar-scape was just needing to see the sun again, in my humble opinion.

Mike,


Its simple.  Most men aren't any different to the ruling class of cats that feel compelled to spray aka mark thier territory!! 

[Matthew Rose]

My first impression comparing the two aerials: is this necessary?

[Bruce Katona]

I'm thinking the redesign may be closer to the original layout before everything grew back (remember there weren't all that many trees back when the place was 1st constructed); but who knows.


If the GC doesn't like the result they'll spend the money to go back to the old.

[Sean Leary]

Can someone post what the visual from the tees was and what it is now?  That is a better actual indicator than the aerial. That being said, I am surprised they didn't try to recreate what was their originally or whatever time is deemed ideal to replicate.


I do chuckle that the sand color that everyone bitched about is native...

[corey miller]

I agree with Mike C in that the best option would have been to remove the trees and restore what was original or perhaps just leave as is with vegetation removal from time to time.


For me, the hole now is much more intimidating.  When the trees were there you were looking at a shot that was "safe" or on the fairway in almost the full visual area.


With the new work the landing area is now 20% of the visible area so it looks extremely small and much more difficult.

[Jon Cavalier]

Can someone post what the visual from the tees was and what it is now?  That is a better actual indicator than the aerial. That being said, I am surprised they didn't try to recreate what was their originally or whatever time is deemed ideal to replicate.


I do chuckle that the sand color that everyone bitched about is native...

As requested:

[Marty Bonnar]

Here’s a couple of recent snaps from a dear friend.



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ALL RIGHTS RESERVED


Cheers,
F.