The Biarritz at Yale - Really?

[Mike Hendren]

In my opinion, this is among the most disappointing iconic golf holes I have played.  While I get that the pond replicates the original's chasm I didn't get the disparate size of the two plateau's, the front being much wider and deeper than the back.  The back is effectively even smaller given the rounding of the putting surface.  Perhaps my opinion is shaped by playing to a front hole location, but as I was solo I played a few shots trying to run a shot through the swale to the rear plateau.  Talk about entering through a narrow gate.  I suspect playing to the front hole location is what it's like to be relegated to playing to the alternate green at Riviera's 10th. 

The frequent maintenance of the front level as fairway at other examples of the template as fairway is damning of the Yale version where the back level comes across as an afterthought.  The net result to me feels like a water hole with a swale at the back that permits recovery with a putter after a shot that has guardedly been played long from the tee to avoid the drink. 

While the engineering is no doubt a thing of beauty, this hole can't hold a candle to its cousins at Forsgate and Black Creek, just to name a couple I've played and fell in love with.   To be honest, I was far more blown away by the preceding 8th green with its mimicking of a twisted towel being wrung out.  And don't even get me started on the near by Yale Bowl - oh my!

Ducking under my desk now to avoid the onslaught.  "Hit me with  your best shot - fire away."

Bogey

[Sven Nilsen]

In my opinion, this is among the most disappointing iconic golf holes I have played.  While I get that the pond replicates the original's chasm I didn't get the disparate size of the two plateau's, the front being much wider and deeper than the back. 

The hole CBM borrowed the Biarritz concept from did not have a chasm.  This has been covered before.


There was a "Chasm Hole" at Biarritz, but it was gone by the time he saw the course.

[Mike Sweeney]

Pretty much agree with everything you said. I think The Knoll (Bahto redo) and Forsgate are better GOLF holes, but visually as "signature holes", Yale is better for the dreaded "Raters" because of the lake and the dramatic drop-offs on each side of Yale. Mountain Lake trails the above, and if I remember, Piping Rock might be the best of all. Brian Silva did the redo at Tamarack in CT, and that is in mix too.

Finally, playing uphill and the front part is fairway, not green - Fishers is even more overrated as a golf hole, but it is awfully nice:

[Mark Fedeli]

In my opinion, this is among the most disappointing iconic golf holes I have played.  While I get that the pond replicates the original's chasm I didn't get the disparate size of the two plateau's, the front being much wider and deeper than the back. 

The hole CBM borrowed the Biarritz concept from did not have a chasm.  This has been covered before.


There was a "Chasm Hole" at Biarritz, but it was gone by the time he saw the course.

The latest issue of The Golfer’s Journal goes in-depth about the Biarritz template and goes all-in on the Chasm as the main and only inspiration. They even mention this very website.


It’s extremely disappointing to see that mistake continued to be made, despite all the fine work that was done in the thread here a few years back to clear up the issue of which hole CBM was referring to. 

[William_G]

the sum is greater than the individuals pieces   

[Ally Mcintosh]

Mike S,


I’ve only ever played a Biarritz at Yale, on that great day a few years ago that you organised with a bunch of GCA’ers (Mucci and Mark B being my partners).


But I’m surprised to hear you say that about Fisher’s Island.


Does the concept not work better on an uphill hole rather than a downhill hole because the ball approach angle is shallower, given more ability to run through the first plateau? Guess the same can be said of Redan...

[Mike Sweeney]

But I’m surprised to hear you say that about Fisher’s Island.


Does the concept not work better on an uphill hole rather than a downhill hole because the ball approach angle is shallower, given more ability to run through the first plateau? Guess the same can be said of Redan...

I actually would go one step further and ask - Is the Fisher's Biarritz a "Biarritz"? It plays uphill and as you can see in Jon Cavalier's photo, the front part of the green is NOT green, but rather fairway. Can you roll one on from front to back? I wish I could say that I have played Fishers dozens of times to test this theory out, but no suck luck.


I personally like the "interpretations" of the holes and it provides variety, to me. Thus, it is NOT a critique of the hole, just clarifying the differences that I saw on two plays.


Obviously I am a huge fan of Fishers and Yale, and this is a Supermodel type of discussion. That said, I think Yale is the better golf course architecture course, and Fishers truly is in a unique category with something like 15+ holes with views of the ocean/bay. I also think the angular nature of a Raynor course in such a natural windswept location adds to Fishers' visual allure.

[Bret Lawrence]

Ally,


I agree with your assessment.  I actually prefer the Fishers Island Biarritz, because just as you stated, the approach shot is coming in at a lower angle which allows a player to run the ball after it lands, if that's what they choose to do.  I should also mention the approach on the front of Fishers Island Biarritz is shorter than most greens you will find on muny courses.


Mike,


Fishers Island is certainly a Biarritz.  Most Biarritz were designed with the front panel as approach and the rear plateau as green.  Fishers Island has stayed true to their original design better than most Raynor courses out there.  I personally prefer the original design to the 80 yard green variety because it allows for more recovery options for the player and it matches the designers intent.




I think another misconception we have with the Biarritz is that regardless of location and elevation we expect every Biarritz to play the same.  There is a 1913 article introducing the Biarritz at Piping Rock.  In that article, Devereux Emmet tells us how to play the Piping Rock Biarritz by running the ball on the front portion and running it through the swale.  He didn't tell us how to play every Biarritz after that, just Piping Rocks. 


If you look at Banks' description on how to play Yale's Biarritz he doesn't say anything about a low running shot.  He suggests you hit a full shot to near the edge of the trench.  The ideal shot at Yale is harder than most Biarritz because you have to land on the edge or in the downslope of the trench to get it to kick through the swale.  The downslope on Yales Biarritz is close to twenty feet long, so it is possible, it's just hard!  Now a days, many players can just as easily carry it to the back plateau, so it has lost some of its interest in that regard. 


Bret

[Joe Bausch]

Both are superb, IMHO.

Yale's Biarritz photos begin here:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/Yale/pages/page_47.html?

Fishers Island's Biarritz photos begin here:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/FishersIsland/pages/page_28.html

[Sven Nilsen]

Bret:


Nice summary.


Whenever these conversations come up I keep going back to CBM's idea of testing a variety of different shots throughout a round, with the Biarritz demanding a long running shot where judging how far the ball will roll is the key. 


Is there another hole at Yale that asks for this kind of shot? 


The version at Yale might be a better hole for the modern game, but I suppose you could make the case that when the course opened it was less "ideal" than some of the other MacRaynors out there.


At some point along the way, the version of the hole seen at Yale supplanted all others as the most emblematic of the style, even being the direct influence for the 8th at Old MacDonald.  One wonders what the holes might look like if they had used the ground for the 8th as a Redan and put the Biarritz where the 12th currently sits.


Sven

[Kyle Harris]

I prefer the front portion of the hole to be mowed as fairway and I think the Fisher's Island version is close to the ideal execution for the template. Slightly uphill, an approach that kills a low shot from a tee below the putting surface with the ball bounding through the swale to the putting surface. Carry the ball too far and the ball won't leave the swale or stay on the green.

[John Foley]

Been to Yale 4 times and have never seen the pin in the back. Do we know if they use it that often? A straight tee shot to the front section is a relatively benign shot that visually is intimidating.

[Ronald Montesano]

One step farther: can they pin the back portion of Yale's 9th?

[Amol Yajnik]

Been to Yale 4 times and have never seen the pin in the back. Do we know if they use it that often? A straight tee shot to the front section is a relatively benign shot that visually is intimidating.

One step farther: can they pin the back portion of Yale's 9th?

They can pin it in the back, and I have played it as such.  Due to the slopes on the back part of the green, the pin location on the back part is almost always on the left side.  One can play a running shot through the swale that gets up to the right side of the back section, and if the green is running fast enough, the ball will feed to the left side pretty well.


Of course, with the modern game, some people can hit towering long irons that will get to the back section on the fly and hold the green from there. I almost saw an ace on the fly from a Yale golf team member a couple of years ago, I think his shot ended up about 5 feet away from the pin.

[Tim Martin]

One step farther: can they pin the back portion of Yale's 9th?

They can and do pin the back portion.

[Tom_Doak]

Well, I love the 9th at Yale.


If it's so wrong then why did Macdonald choose to build it?


If it wasn't for Macdonald no one would ever have heard of the concept, much less elevated it to importance. The hole at Biarritz was so obscure that everyone has focused for 100+ years on the wrong hole.

[Mark Fedeli]

Well, I love the 9th at Yale.


If it's so wrong then why did Macdonald choose to build it?


If it wasn't for Macdonald no one would ever have heard of the concept, much less elevated it to importance. The hole at Biarritz was so obscure that everyone has focused for 100+ years on the wrong hole.

Tom, if I recall correctly you were quoted in that recent Golfer's Journal article about the Biarritz. Did they mention to you they were going to be focusing solely on the Chasm hole? Did you try to correct them? Or was your conversation with them only about how the template has endured?

[Tom_Doak]

Well, I love the 9th at Yale.


If it's so wrong then why did Macdonald choose to build it?


If it wasn't for Macdonald no one would ever have heard of the concept, much less elevated it to importance. The hole at Biarritz was so obscure that everyone has focused for 100+ years on the wrong hole.

Tom, if I recall correctly you were quoted in that recent Golfer's Journal article about the Biarritz. Did they mention to you they were going to be focusing solely on the Chasm hole? Did you try to correct them? Or was your conversation with them only about how the template has endured?

I don't remember the conversation and I haven't seen the article, so I'm not sure if they used an old quote from me. 


Ten years ago, I believed the story about the Chasm hole, too -- it was easier to believe when there was scant information about it, and of course George Bahto had it wrong in his widely praised book about Macdonald.  But obviously I would have corrected them if they'd asked me about it recently.

[Mike Hendren]

Well, I love the 9th at Yale.


If it's so wrong then why did Macdonald choose to build it?


If it wasn't for Macdonald no one would ever have heard of the concept, much less elevated it to importance. The hole at Biarritz was so obscure that everyone has focused for 100+ years on the wrong hole.

Tom, are you suggesting C. B. was infallible?

I do agree that it's best quality is it's offspring.

Mike

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, are you suggesting C. B. was infallible?

I do agree that it's best quality is it's offspring.

Mike

I'm suggesting C. B. Macdonald understood why he appreciated the Biarritz template, better than anyone alive today.  He wasn't mistaking it for the Chasm hole; he had actually played the original hole, and was the one who decided it had qualities worth repeating.


Of course, it's possible that Raynor misused the hole at Yale and C.B. had very little to do with it, but he did put his name on the place instead of just recommending Raynor for the job, as he did in so many other places.

[Bill Crane]

One step farther: can they pin the back portion of Yale's 9th?

Ron -

I played in the OC Punchbowl at Yale several times and they always put the pin on the back plateau for that event.  I seem to remember someone shooting it at 236 yards (!!). The tees were just about furthest back left and pin was on upper tier towards the back right.  Yale Coach Colin smoked a 4 iron to about 12 feet.

Personally, I greatly prefer Yale's Biarritz to the others that I have played including Forsgate, Yeamans and Whipporwill.    And I have played at least ten rounds at Yale, more than that at Forsgate.  While they are all great holes, the way the green is benched in the hillside at Yale suits my eye the best.   More than any other feature, Forsgate's and the others are so rectilinear, with large rectilinear bunkers accentuating that geometric look.  Yes, I prefer a less geometric look over all in golf design but that is what makes the McRaynor Banks courses interesting, and hey, we are talking about an embarrassment of riches here.

In the end, it is really what appeals to you.  The chasm does not do much for me other than create an interesting visual.  The fact that 9th green at Yale is more downhill may enhance it's appeal to me.

Coach Colin agrees with me that the best hole on the course is  # 8, a big Cape hole than utilizes a flowing and sweeping expanse of land, and has an amazing Redan style green on par 4 - it must be one of the best holes in the US. 

[Mike Sweeney]

The Fried Egg catches a lot of interesting versions here:


http://www.friedegg.co/golf-courses/the-biarritz

[Keith Phillips]

I'm not sure whether #9 at Yale is a good hole or a bad hole, but I am certain I was not disappointed by it.  I have played it twice, both in Outpost events, and have it on my short list of the best par 3s I've played.  The pin was on the back tier both times I played it, but the entire experience of hitting that tee shot is memorable.  Overall Yale is a top 10 (world) course for me - just mind-boggling good with few blemishes.

[Jeff Schley]

The Macdonald Biarritz was intended to be a test of a long par 3 shot, typically with a wood at that time a 220 or longer shot could even have been with a driver.  Thus, rolling the ball up through the swale was needed as nobody was going to be able to land a long or even mid iron next to the pin positions and hold.
If you wanted to have a modern day Biarritz to test pro's they would need to be close to 300 yards if you wanted them to roll the ball through the swale. I don't actually care about testing pro's so I'm not advocating lengthening them, but for even mid to low handicap players I like the idea of having the front and back portions green as if you miss on the opposite portion you have to hit a very fun putt!  To this extreme I recall the 16th at North Berwick, which while not a long par 3, Gate for me caused me to putt from the front portion through the swale to the back (no I wasn't excited about my short chip I duffed onto the wrong portion).

I know there aren't many publicly accessible Biarritz's around and appreciate the design concept of the green having a pronounced swale in the middle as it is very fun regardless of it is a long par 3 with bunkers on both sides, green or fairway on the front, etc.
Love the design concept and don't believe one better than the other, just put one on a course in some form as it makes the round memorable.

[Tim Martin]

The Macdonald Biarritz was intended to be a test of a long par 3 shot, typically with a wood at that time a 220 or longer shot could even have been with a driver.  Thus, rolling the ball up through the swale was needed as nobody was going to be able to land a long or even mid iron next to the pin positions and hold.
If you wanted to have a modern day Biarritz to test pro's they would need to be close to 300 yards if you wanted them to roll the ball through the swale. I don't actually care about testing pro's so I'm not advocating lengthening them, but for even mid to low handicap players I like the idea of having the front and back portions green as if you miss on the opposite portion you have to hit a very fun putt!  To this extreme I recall the 16th at North Berwick, which while not a long par 3, Gate for me caused me to putt from the front portion through the swale to the back (no I wasn't excited about my short chip I duffed onto the wrong portion).

I know there aren't many publicly accessible Biarritz's around and appreciate the design concept of the green having a pronounced swale in the middle as it is very fun regardless of it is a long par 3 with bunkers on both sides, green or fairway on the front, etc.
Love the design concept and don't believe one better than the other, just put one on a course in some form as it makes the round memorable.

It would seem that regardless of which Biarritz version we are talking about and whether there is fairway or green in front that you can get in with a putter. Fairway in the front section gives the player the option to putt or pitch.