Whjy is this Harbour Town Held in Any Esteem?

[Dan_Callahan]

The fairways are narrow, but not ridiculously so. There is very little water on the course, and it is wide open when you hit it into the trees, so you never really worry about losing a ball. The greens are nice ... small, well protected, with some interesting hole locations.


But in my one play, I found it underwhelming. Not bad. Certainly much better than most courses I’ve played. But for those who hold it in such high regard ... I just don’t see it. I loved 17 and 18. I remember the first hole simply because it was the first hole. Everything in between ... was nice.


I remember my first round at Pebble and I went in with high expectations, and the course exceeded them. Same was true at Kittansett and Dornoch and North Berwick and Alwoodley. I went to HT with high expectations and was underwhelmed. Same way I felt about Spyglass and Spanish Bay.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,


I understand your point RE Pebble. And the expectations/reality duality that sometimes influences our views of books, movies and courses.


BTW, most of your list has ocean front holes and your fave HT holes are on the water.  HT is a bit like Pinehurst in that it doesn't grab you visually with tree lined hole after tree lined hole.  I assume you realize where at least some of your mindset comes from?


For both HT and PB, I have played 3 times, and each time I was less impressed.  My last time at HT I was surprised how narrow it was this time.  Did the trees just grow which hadn't been accounted for?


My mindset came from the immediate press HT got as being unique.  Golf Digest had done an article on some of the interesting things Dye was doing, but here was a chance to play what everyone said was one of his best.  So, I drove down soon after opening as a young architect working for a firm I thought might have gone stale.  Creativity to me was golf features I had never seen at that time, like some long strip bunkers, the U shaped 9th green, etc.  I admit, in that mindset I was impressed.


BTW, when I returned with photos my then bosses were not impressed.  For the flat bunkers, they opined that Pete couldn't think in 3D as well as other architects.  For the U shaped green, you couldn't putt around the corner, etc.  (This from the firm that designed Kemper Lakes which has (had?) many greens that unintentionally had the same problem.  BTW, their favorite Hilton Head course (and it was a good one) was Fazio's Moss Creek.


Sidebar - Alice once ( in the 1990's)told me that they did oval greens, in part because its the only shape you can't create that problem, also they looked less contrived, but before and after, they had done various shapes)


My second trip was part of ASGCA.  Someone had mentioned that "for all the Scottish look and apparent run up shots, the front approaches and all their humps and bumps force the aerial game."  And, actually, that statement by another gca has stuck with me.  If you want to encourage the run up, predictable slopes do that more than random bumps.  Who in there right mind would mindfully bring a hazard into play when you can avoid it with the aerial game?  I do realize that as a narrow course, many are playing the long punch shot under branches, so they must negotiate these, putting more premium on straight tee shots)


That experience, with that current mindset, and the (IMHO) continued narrowing meant it had gone down in my eyes, mostly worth playing because it was on TV, but having done that, probably not going again.  Not that I would avoid it if ever in HH for other reasons.  Interesting, but wonder how many other top resorts really are designed as "bucket list" play once in a lifetime type courses, rather than designed for everyday challenge of members or the public?


Sorry for the Monday morning, post coffee (2 cups today!) stream of consciousness......

[George Pazin]

BTW, most of your list has ocean front holes and your fave HT holes are on the water.  HT is a bit like Pinehurst in that it doesn't grab you visually with tree lined hole after tree lined hole.  I assume you realize where at least some of your mindset comes from?

At least Pinehurst has some land movement. So does Pebble. And so do most of the others Dan listed. Maybe that's where his mindset comes from.

[Dan_Callahan]

I think the ocean has something to do with it. Although Alwoodley was very landlocked.


I will 100% admit a bias in favor of the ocean. Having said that, Ekwanok is a personal favorite. And now that I think about it ... Shinnecock, although near the ocean, doesn’t really interact with the ocean once you tee off in the way that a course like Pebble does.


I think 17 and 18 at HT stood out in my mind because the ocean added something different, thus making it memorable? But also, the design of those holes I felt like gave me more to think/worry about on the tee. And suddenly way more of a breeze to deal with. All of which I liked.

[Bruce Wellmon]

Like Dismal Red, HT doesn't finish at the clubhouse.

[Bruce Katona]

The Scot (FBD) focuses on dressing up the background in tartan attire....I love it!

[Kalen Braley]

I can see many of VKs points here, and from what i've seen on TV and such, it doesn't look compelling, much less a bucket list course.


And then when good players like Pat and Jeff say it was tough even for them, doesn't instill confidence in a high capper like myself. Hell there are plenty of tight tree lined courses in every country of the corner to beat myself up on, why travel to HH to do it?


P.S.  I'm curious since when did different and unique correlate to top notch?  Jim Engh does very out of the box stuff but is nearly universally panned here..

[James Brown]

I didn’t think Harbor Town was all that narrow when I played it, granted it was winter when I played it.  What struck me the most was how challenging the green complexes were - and how interesting.  It is definitely a “thinking man’s” course and that’s where I think the visceral love of HT comes from ere. 

[Mark_Fine]

Harbour Town is very playable.  My wife is a 35 handicap, carries her driver about 125 yards with a good one and she has no trouble getting around.  TV doesn't do most courses justice and we all should never judge a course by just what we see on TV.  If you are someone who only likes to hit driver on every hole and you spray it 300 yards off the tee in every direction, HT might not be for you but that doesn't diminish the greatness of the design. 

[Jerry Kluger]

To me I would go a few miles down the road and play another Pete Dye course which I think is really good - Long Cove. I have only played these courses once so I cannot recite exactly what I can point to that makes LC better for me other than it just didn't seem so plain and flat.  Some holes at LC were far from flat and I know Dye moved a whole bunch of dirt to create them but they still felt as if he hadn't done so.  Of course you can still stay within South Carolina and play the Ocean Course. For that matter I was quite impressed with the Dye course at Colleton River which is a wonderful walk without any houses.

[Charles Lund]

I found Harbour Town quite enjoyable and elected to play it three times in the four days we were in the area. I was with a friend and neither of us are drawn to Pete Dye designs, but we decided it was probably more compatible with what we could enjoy, so we played it on multiple occasions.


If you look at the history of past winners, winners have been among the best players of most eras since the tournament began. 


 https://rbcheritage.com/about/past-champions


Charles Lund

[MKrohn]

Never been to HH, so will stay out of the discussion, anyone know why its Harbour not Harbor?

[Jamie Pyper]

Harbour is the preferred spelling in all varieties of English outside America. So I suppose it made sense to use Harbour to better tie-in to the "old country" theme of the original design concept. This goes to the question why Harbour Town is held in Esteem because to me it represented a contrarian architect's interpretation of a Prestwick or North Berwick's quirk to the North American market. 


I first visited Harbour Town as a 15 year old kid following Hale Irwin at the 1973 Heritage Classic. My next visit was 45 years later when I played it twice last month. Loved it more than I thought I would.

 

[Mark_Fine]

Jerry,
Long Cove is outstanding and is a must play if you are on the island and can get an invite.  A recent restoration and regrassing project has made it even better (the bunkering in particular had grown tired and had lost their size and shapes).  It used to be on GD’s Top 100 list and it should move back there.  I love the golf course.  But this takes nothing away from Harbour Town which I love as well for the reasons mentioned. 

[Kyle Harris]

Well timed because just this morning I got to thinking about how subtlety and intrigue is lost in an era of drone footage and "experience" blogging that doesn't seem to capture the feeling of how one senses topography while walking a site. More often, I find a simple bump opposed by danger on the other side of the target to be far more compelling golf than most other tactical dilemmas.

I've never played Harbour Town. I've only seen what one can see from entrance road and from atop the lighthouse. We visited a few months ago to visit the same lighthouse.

The 18th green was enough to make me curious about the rest.

[Mark Pritchett]

Harbour Town is held in high esteem for many of the reasons mentioned on this thread.  I have to give HT credit as well for not jumping on the "trend" of aggressive tree removal and over expanded greens which would destroy the intimacy of the place.


As Jeff Warne eloquently said "every course does not need to be the same". 

[Eric Smith]

Harbour Town is held in high esteem for many of the reasons mentioned on this thread.  I have to give HT credit as well for not jumping on the "trend" of aggressive tree removal and over expanded greens which would destroy the intimacy of the place.


As Jeff Warne eloquently said "every course does not need to be the same".

Taking it a step further, HT gets plenty of love. Just go there and take a look around. Everyone is happy to be there. It isn't gloom and doom like some of these takes. 

[A.G._Crockett]

I've thought about this thread a lot over the last couple of days, having just played HT twice, and then watching a LOT of this year's tournament last weekend.
Perhaps the idea that HT is restrictive because of trees, or to use VMetz's term, has "bowling alley" fairways, comes from the fact that it's a 50 year old golf course carved out of a coastal forest simply comes from watching current golfers try to hit fairways with drives that go over 300 yards.  I can assure you that if you only hit the ball 230, and more or less hit it where you are looking, HT just is NOT particularly tight from the tee.  It just isn't. 

And I'll add here that I LOVE trees anyway.  Live Oaks aren't my favorite tree (that would be the beech) but they're close.  They are just majestic, and the ones on HT were likely full grown before the first bit of dirt was moved for the golf course.   Live Oaks grow fast, but then live a really LONG time, in some cases well over 1000 years.  Go to Johns Island, near Charleston, and stand beside the Angel Oak; it will change you.  I'm all over the map in my feelings about Pete Dye courses, and don't especially like Nicklaus courses, but I am so grateful that they seem to have tried to spare those beautiful creatures of ancient wood. 

It just stirs my soul to play a beautiful, strategic, interesting, and rather iconic golf course routed through these trees, and in the two rounds I played, I don't think I hit but one of them, to which I apologized.  I also only lost one golf ball in the two rounds, and that only because of a really BIG gator that you might have seen last weekend on TV, rather than trees.  And I could see THAT ball, but retrieving it seemed insignificant at that moment.  I'll say it again; if you hit a tree on HT, you've hit a pretty bad shot; for the guys on TV, it might mean that they picked the wrong club, but still, it's a bad shot.

And I'll stand behind what I wrote in my first response about the par threes.  They are wonderful.  A good golf hole, I think, is one that you want to play again as soon as you finish it, and the 3's at HT are that in spades.

[Jason Topp]

I played the course once in 1995 while staying a week in a house on the 13th hole.  I loved the feel of the course on a lovely spring day.  One had to really pay attention to notice that houses lined each hole.  I enjoyed the challenge of trying to curve shots around trees and enjoyed the sudden battle with a previously unnoticeable wind starting with the 2nd shot on 16. 


I loved it in 1995.  It would be interesting to go back and see the place after two decades of golf architecture reading and conversation.

[V. Kmetz]

Well as the thread reaches past its bell curve, I'll bracket my contribution thus:


1. I was never angry, I was just taking a playfully ornery stance


2. I don't think HT is bad or substandard from afar; I'm happy that its many supporters here have gotten joy from it. If I was in a different condition and disposition, it would be a course I'd like to see/play someday.


3. I hope people...147 custodian people...playing width people...ground game people... walking only people...fairways must have contours to be interesting people... trees are a blight people...anti-RE development people.... who otherwise find value and esteem here, will take it easy on courses (great and small, atop Lists or not) that have "shortcomings" of the nature and variety that can be observed here.


That's all; that was the entire purpose of me making the thread Sunday...to closely examine a place that ticks off many don'ts, but still earns praise for 50 years...


cheers  vk

[Terry Lavin]

Nothing wrong with being an inquisitive provocateur!

[Kalen Braley]

Vk,

I appreciated the thread, and didn't see the anger either!

P.S.  Two Sacred Cows in a row, Augusta and now apparently HT....who knew?

[Ronald Montesano]

It's actually spelled Harbore Town, as it will you bore you to death. Or, you will need to bore your tee shots through the choked, tree-laden fairways.


Or, is it Harboar Town, due to the infestation of local, pink young pigs of southern fame.


It might be Harbour Town, because Justin Bour plays for the Los Angeles Angels, and you need angles to play Harbour Town.


I think I've violated enough for today.

[Terry Lavin]

If a guy can’t spell “Why”, then “whjy” should we give a shit?   

[Chad Anderson (Tennessee)]

I think Harbour Town is one of the most over rated places I have played.  If I'm in the HHI area, I'd much rather play Congaree, Secession, May River, Haig Pointe, Chechessee, Long Cove...


BUT, the Tour players seem to love it.  Maybe because it is so different from what they usually see?  They also love Copperhead at Innisbrook and I thought it was over rated too.  Obviously, my game differs from their's.


If you play Haig Pointe, you can see the Harbour Town lighthouse on at least 5 holes across the bay, you only see it on #18 at HT.


I LOVE SEA PINES and would like to buy a house there one day.  I've vacationed there 7 out of the last 9 years or so and my family loves it.