When evaluating a course do you try to “understand” its conditioning?

[Michael Whitaker]

I live in South Carolina and March is a popular month for guests from colder areas.

Recently, I hosted some visitors at a few of our state’s better courses. While they enjoyed the courses, they were disappointed in the conditions and had a few disparaging things to say as a result (these were raters “scoring” the courses).

March is not a good time for course conditions in SC... Bermuda grass is still in transition and the resistant Poa we are experiencing is often rampant.

I understand that winter-locked golfers like to come South for some action, but they should make a point of understanding growing seasons and local challenges before they “score” a course or mark it down for less than ideal conditions.

[Thomas Dai]

Why course conditioning is the way it is at any time of year ought to be constantly considered by all players. Nature is usually pretty difficult to beat and sometimes factors from the past can have an effect. Trouble is some folks always seem to expect perfection, same folks most likely who are annoyed when their ticket doesn’t win the lottery.
A question about raters - do clubs get the opportunity to query a rating with the organisation backing the rater?

Atb

[Michael Whitaker]

A question about raters - do clubs get the opportunity to query a rating with the organisation backing the rater?

This is a great question! I guess a course could contact a publication and express their dissatisfaction, but I'm not sure how much good that would do after the fact.

Your question could be a thread of its own.

[Joe Hancock]

Michael,


Another follow-up question might be “Should golf courses that experience vastly different conditioning during different seasons just not allow raters during “off” times?”


Unfortunately, saying “no” might be the only way to fend off the ignorance of the situation.


Another question: If a rater plays a course on their “list”, can they be told that, due to seasonal challenges, they can’t process their rating during that round?


I dislike the whole rating game, but it’s obviously very important to a great deal of people, as Tom Doaks’ recent thread about ranking architects has pointed out.

[Michael Whitaker]

Joe - many on this site complain about raters announcing themselves to the course. They feel that raters should play the course anonymously... just as raters for restaurants do, for example. Hard for a course to "not allow" a rater when they don't know one is present.

In any case, there is no harm in "rating" or "ranking" things. It happens for just about everything in every walk of life. You probably have your own personal ranking of things in your life... restaurants, wine, beer, movies, songs, vacation spots and (dare we say it?) golf courses.

Your question is a another candidate for a thread of its own: "If a rater plays a course on their “list”, can they be told that, due to seasonal challenges, they can’t process their rating during that round?"

[Tom_Doak]

Michael,

Another follow-up question might be “Should golf courses that experience vastly different conditioning during different seasons just not allow raters during “off” times?”

Unfortunately, saying “no” might be the only way to fend off the ignorance of the situation.

Another question: If a rater plays a course on their “list”, can they be told that, due to seasonal challenges, they can’t process their rating during that round

More courses do this than you imagine.  For example, some prefer that you play with the professional or an assistant or a designated member, so they can educate visitors if they're not seeing the course at its peak.


Seminole just closes when they start to lose their edge on course conditions.  Augusta National doesn't let photos of the course get out from the times of year when things aren't in bloom.


Places like Shanqin Bay [and, formerly, Shadow Creek] won't have you at all unless they are ready to throw you a party.


It's all part of the game.  None of it should be necessary, but let's face it, the majority of raters don't know the difference between "bad" conditions and routine maintenance works that set the course back for a day or two.  And there are lots of courses that take the rankings seriously enough to try to manage that possibility.

[Michael Whitaker]

Tom - I agree with (and like) the idea of courses having an "ambassador" play with a rater to help them understand the course and its features. But, this doesn't help the situation when a rater is playing as a paying guest at a public course or a companion of a friend or member.

I think most raters understand the underlying differences in conditioning for courses in their home regions, but I'm not so sure they understand courses that are outside their usual sampling. For example, players who visit the South from the Northeast or Midwest often don't understand the different seasons of Bermuda grass and how it affects the playability of the course.

In my example, the guys I hosted were not really on a rating trip. They just wanted to play some golf. But, first impressions are first impressions... and, they were left a bit disappointed in the conditions they experienced... very playable, but somewhat scruffy. But, when your home course is under a few feet of snow scruffy is OK, I think!

It was later when they had a discussion about turning in a rating on one of the courses that I raised an eyebrow. There is no way they could have gotten the full "flavor" of the course, but I guess they didn't want to miss the opportunity to turn in a rating on a course they might never see again. Sort of a Catch 22, I guess.

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:


Actually, it bothers me tremendously that courses act like panelists are idiots, and feel the need to lead them around by the hand and tell them the full Narrative of what a great course the place is.  If the courses can't stand on their own merits, then we are really ranking the p.r. effort as much as the course.


But, guess what?  That's what we're doing in many cases.  We've kind of always been doing it, to be honest; they don't tell those stories about Hogan at Seminole because he would have wanted them to.  They have a purpose in mind.  I kind of do it for Crystal Downs, sometimes . . . a lot of people have played there with me, and there's no question they understand the course better than if they'd just gone out and hit it wherever.


And, many panelists do not understand all the nuances of what they're doing, as you have well described.

[Sean_A]

I was never in favour of a conditioning element for rating a course except in exceptional circumstances...which really should mean giving the benefit of doubt or not when between scores. 

If I am a single I would rather play with someone from the club if only so I can see more shots and slow the pace down (or sometimes to better fit in with the pace if there is nowhere to go).  It doesn't have to be a dog and pony show, just a simple game will do.

Ciao

[Peter Pallotta]

Does very good design have 'elasticity'? From reading this thread it sounds as if the 'architecture' at even some top flight & famous courses doesn't have much elasticity, ie it doesn't manifest & play at its best for much of the season; the design can't embrace and work in concert with differing (ie less than the prescribed ideal) conditions and various times of year. Is that inevitable, or is it a flaw/failing?

[Joe Hancock]

In any case, there is no harm in "rating" or "ranking" things. It happens for just about everything in every walk of life. You probably have your own personal ranking of things in your life... restaurants, wine, beer, movies, songs, vacation spots and (dare we say it?) golf courses.

We all have preferences. Published lists are a different animal, as they have a large influence on what people are supposed to think is better. Oddly, we sometimes find ourselves playing a course that, once we are told how good it is, we feel badly if we don’t like it that much. It happened to me when I played Belvedere in Michigan. I would probably like it more if I got to know it better, but I felt bad that I wasn’t as wowed by it as much as I was told I should be. I recently played golf with a fellow shaper who isn’t really in love with Crystal Downs, but doesn’t want to say it out loud because he’s afraid it will not be a good look on his preferences, considering who he works with.


You’ve spawned a bunch of new thread material with this one. You’re comment about “no harm in rating or ranking” might not be entirely true. If there were no such thing as ratings and rankings, would many of the struggling local courses and clubs be in better shape because people wouldn’t be spending so much to travel the globe to see the latest and greatest on the lists? In other words, would the money stay closer to home?

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I would hope that most raters are good enough at what they do to know a little bit about what season/conditions they are seeing and take that into account.


Having said that I very often am told by courses that they do not allow raters from XXX to XXX dates due to the off season, or aeration, or maintenance, etc.  And I have no problem with that.  In fact I have recommended that to club people that ask me about the situation.  I tell them you are the final arbiter as to whether you want to let panelists out or not.  Now certainly in the case of anonymous raters there is nothing that they can do about it, but again I would hope the rater would be conscientious enough to take that into account.


I recently contacted a  course that is very well regarded on here (designed and lived on by a famous Dr., and recently featured on TV for a rare occurrence) and was told that they would prefer to not have a panelist out to do a rating until after May 1, so I agreed not to turn in a rating, got a tee time, paid the greens fee and just played it to play it.  Knowing that I had little to no flexibility in my business trip. 


I am sure just like golfers, and people in general you have a lot of different personalities and mindsets amongst raters and some who can't get past what they experience that day.  My thought is that the problem lies with that rater and not with the course. 

[Joel_Stewart]

Michael,

Another follow-up question might be “Should golf courses that experience vastly different conditioning during different seasons just not allow raters during “off” times?”

Unfortunately, saying “no” might be the only way to fend off the ignorance of the situation.

Another question: If a rater plays a course on their “list”, can they be told that, due to seasonal challenges, they can’t process their rating during that round

More courses do this than you imagine.  For example, some prefer that you play with the professional or an assistant or a designated member, so they can educate visitors if they're not seeing the course at its peak.

Not sure I agree. I've played many courses that were not in good shape. Furthermoe I've hosted panelists at Olympic in the winter when conditions were less than ideal.


The bigger point is that many courses do not "manage panelists" the way they should.


On another note, the problem with many panelists especially at GD is they don't understand different grass and everything is benchmarked against Augusta or The Quarry at La Quinta without knowing that fescue or Bermuda can be in great condition. GD tried to improve the ratings a few years ago adding firm and fast to the characteristics but it doesn't appear to have changed the ratings.

[Mike Sweeney]

March is not a good time for course conditions in SC... Bermuda grass is still in transition and the resistant Poa we are experiencing is often rampant.

The Bermuda transition was obvious last week as I played the much better conditioned Rye based (I think) Bethpage Green (NY) early in the week and then attended the Bermuda based Naval Academy Invitational (MD) and played the course on Easter Sunday:

Bethpage Green on April 16


Naval Academy Golf Course on April 20





You can see the trees at Navy are much more grown in, while the grass is behind at Navy. Chipping around the greens at Navy yesterday was really tough. It was confirmed over the weekend that the Navy course is shutting down in August for a renovation that includes a complete re-grassing. It appears they have a hodge podge of grasses there now. I will be back in a month to play the course so it will be interesting to see the difference a month of 70 degree days brings to conditioning.

[Tommy Williamsen]

GOLF DIGEST is very clear to the raters, "Do not rate courses in their off season." March would qualify in SC. I told my SC club for years, "Do not accept panelist play before the course is in decent shape."

[jeffwarne]

Let's back up for a second...


March is NOT off season for a course in South Carolina, unless it is in the mountains.
When I worked at Hilton Head THE Season began Feb 15th.
Sure the non overseeded courses aren't bright green in the fairway but their greens and fairways will play just fine.


A rater who doesn't understand that bermuda grass is off color(light green, to brown to nearly white in sub freezing nights) until temperatures stop dropping below 40ish at night, shouldn't be rating golf courses. Period. But I guess when magazines charge raters, they're not overly discerning about their actual knowledge.


When I worked at Long Cove I would get knucklehead visitors and raters who would comment on them needing to water the "brown" course more when it was dormant in january.
I would counter by asking them how their course in New Jersey was looking.


We opened Friday-
Raters bring it on as there is not a soul around except weekends until Memorial Day weekend(which is coincidentally when all the ratings calls start and I have to say no-interesting how many have 516 area codes on Memorial day weekend.....but I digress)


Spring is a great time to play The Bridge with tawny fairways and firm and fast wall to wall.

[Michael Whitaker]

Jeff - I guess my 68 years of living in S.C. don’t count for much when understanding the seasonal nature of course conditions in my state! 

Hilton Head is NOT really South Carolina... at least we natives don’t consider it so. It’s a tropical barrier island with a climate that is not comparable to most of the state.

Two of the courses I visited with my friends were in the Georgetown county area (south of Myrtle Beach) and they were definitely a month away from good condition.

Panel management should do a better job of educating their members.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

We opened Friday-
Raters bring it on as there is not a soul around except weekends until Memorial Day weekend(which is coincidentally when all the ratings calls start and I have to say no-interesting how many have 516 area codes on Memorial day weekend.....but I digress)


Spring is a great time to play The Bridge with tawny fairways and firm and fast wall to wall.

I wish I could get up there before Memorial day to take you up on that.  Unfortunately there is just no way to make that happen, but appreciate the sentiment.  I do hope to get up that way in June for a business trip, but alas not before Memorial Day unfortunately.


[size=78%]I have always wondered, h[/size]ow much snow do you see out there on L.I. that far out?    When I see the news reports of a Northeaster hitting the city, do the further reaches of L.I. stay more moderated by the surrounding water or do you get it just the same (or maybe even more) as the inland locations in the same region of the country?

[Mark_Fine]

You certainly try to understand the course's "normal or typical" conditioning and if you do your review properly, you should be able to gather that kind of information.  This is not rocket science. 

[Jason Topp]

I do not see how one could do any sort of reasonable review without understanding seasonal factors and the context they provide for course conditions. 

[Tommy Williamsen]

Let's back up for a second...


March is NOT off season for a course in South Carolina, unless it is in the mountains.
When I worked at Hilton Head THE Season began Feb 15th.
Sure the non overseeded courses aren't bright green in the fairway but their greens and fairways will play just fine.


A rater who doesn't understand that bermuda grass is off color(light green, to brown to nearly white in sub freezing nights) until temperatures stop dropping below 40ish at night, shouldn't be rating golf courses. Period. But I guess when magazines charge raters, they're not overly discerning about their actual knowledge.


When I worked at Long Cove I would get knucklehead visitors and raters who would comment on them needing to water the "brown" course more when it was dormant in january.
I would counter by asking them how their course in New Jersey was looking.


We opened Friday-
Raters bring it on as there is not a soul around except weekends until Memorial Day weekend(which is coincidentally when all the ratings calls start and I have to say no-interesting how many have 516 area codes on Memorial day weekend.....but I digress)


Spring is a great time to play The Bridge with tawny fairways and firm and fast wall to wall.

You're missing the point. GD wants its panelists to play when the club presents its course in normal on season condition. We all can make allowances. But that is just it they are allowances. It is fairer to the club to play when the course is in good in season condition. Does it always happen, of course not. But it sure is fairer to the club not to play in the off season. By the way March is off season in terms of Bermuda grass growth. You should know that.

[Tom_Doak]

You're missing the point. GD wants its panelists to play when the club presents its course in normal on season condition. We all can make allowances. But that is just it they are allowances. It is fairer to the club to play when the course is in good in season condition. Does it always happen, of course not. But it sure is fairer to the club not to play in the off season. By the way March is off season in terms of Bermuda grass growth. You should know that.

I'm confused.  Aren't you supposed to be rating the architecture?


If we are talking in the GOLF DIGEST context, with their multiple categories, couldn't you easily rate the course on all 5-6 other categories and just give it an "NR" on conditioning?


The idea that everyone has to rate the course at just the right time is pretty crazy to me.  Should we only rate Augusta on Masters week?

[Mark_Fine]

Tom,
You are absolutely correct, most ratings (like GD's) are supposed to focus on the architecture.  That said, we all know course conditioning has a role as well in how well the architecture presents itself.  But if you are doing a review, you certainly should have some idea about how the course normally presents itself in different seasons, etc.  For goodness sakes, you could happen to show up in prime season but the day after three inches of rain and if you don't understand that this could impact normal course conditions then you should not be judging golf courses. 
Mark

[Michael Whitaker]

I agree with the esteemed Mr. Able in that I give the course the "benefit of the doubt" on conditioning if something is awry when I visit. As Tom says, you are supposed to be evaluating the design. While good conditioning plays a critical role in allowing a design's best features to shine through, poor conditioning can be seen through.

The ideal example for me of a perfect design/conditioning meld are the courses at Streamsong. The conditioning there so compliments the designs that the courses (as good as they are) are elevated to an even higher level.

Whereas... Prestwick Country Club in Myrtle Beach is one of my favorite Pete/PB Dye designs with lots of cool "old school" linksy features. Unfortunately, their primary clientele demands a lush green course requiring thick overseeding and lots of watering. As a result, most of the cool stuff is negated and the course becomes just another target course. However, play there in the middle of summer when the fairways get a bit burned and dry out and it is about as much fun as one can have. In this case I like the course when it is in "bad" condition and don't like it when it is in "good" condition. So, in this weird example, if I'm asked to rate Prestwick CC do I rate the summer course I like or the spring course I don't... or a combination of the two?

[Tommy Williamsen]

You're missing the point. GD wants its panelists to play when the club presents its course in normal on season condition. We all can make allowances. But that is just it they are allowances. It is fairer to the club to play when the course is in good in season condition. Does it always happen, of course not. But it sure is fairer to the club not to play in the off season. By the way March is off season in terms of Bermuda grass growth. You should know that.

I'm confused.  Aren't you supposed to be rating the architecture?


If we are talking in the GOLF DIGEST context, with their multiple categories, couldn't you easily rate the course on all 5-6 other categories and just give it an "NR" on conditioning?


The idea that everyone has to rate the course at just the right time is pretty crazy to me.  Should we only rate Augusta on Masters week?

Of course, you are right. I've played about 1500 different courses so I can figure it out. On the other hand many clubs complain that panelists do not see the course in its normal playing conditions.