The 12th at ANGC and the 17th at TPC Sawgrass

[Pete_Pittock]

Just watching, my breathing pattern certainly changed as the leaders played the twelfth today. 


Are there any other holes which create as much havoc in tournament golf?  Certainly none shorter.

[Jim Nugent]

Are there any other holes which create as much havoc in tournament golf?  Certainly none shorter.

Actually one hole shorter does play that much havoc and more: #17 at TPC Sawgrass. 

[Pete_Pittock]

Are there any other holes which create as much havoc in tournament golf?  Certainly none shorter.

Actually one hole shorter does play that much havoc and more: #17 at TPC Sawgrass.

actually, that was in the title

[Jim Nugent]

Reading comprehension 101...

[Bill Brightly]

I bet if Shinnecock Hills had a pro tournament every year the 11th hole would be near the top of the list.


So would the Postage Stamp at Troon.

[Jerry Kluger]

The 17th at Sawgrass depends more on wind for its difficulty as compared to the 12th at ANGC.  The 17th is basically round with a swale in the middle while the 12th is a diagonal hole making even the "bail out" location more difficult. Of course the 12th looks more natural while the 17th is dramatic with a wind blowing.  Being the 12th hole at ANGC a player in the Masters is just looking to make par as he has two birdie or even eagle holes coming up so he can be a bit cautious.  On the other hand, the player at Sawgrass is not usually viewing number 18 as a birdie hole so it is now or never if he is trying to chase down the leader. Both are great holes and are what make professional golf different from other sports as you are on your own and it is a form of pressure that no other sport has.

[Greg Chambers]

The 17th at Sawgrass depends more on wind for its difficulty as compared to the 12th at ANGC.  The 17th is basically round with a swale in the middle while the 12th is a diagonal hole making even the "bail out" location more difficult. Of course the 12th looks more natural while the 17th is dramatic with a wind blowing.  Being the 12th hole at ANGC a player in the Masters is just looking to make par as he has two birdie or even eagle holes coming up so he can be a bit cautious.  On the other hand, the player at Sawgrass is not usually viewing number 18 as a birdie hole so it is now or never if he is trying to chase down the leader. Both are great holes and are what make professional golf different from other sports as you are on your own and it is a form of pressure that no other sport has.

Wasn’t the wind today precisely what made the hole so difficult?  I don’t recall, under any conditions, watching 4 of the final 6 contestants dunk it in the water on 17 sawgrass.  Wind is a major factor on any short par three...yet year after year we see the best golfers in the world completely baffled by its effect on the shots at the twelfth hole at Augusta.  Far more so than what we see at the the players.

[mike_beene]

With wind gusts these are the two ultimate clowns mouth holes. Part skill but a large amount of luck. But very entertaining.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Assuming the 12th is as Dr MacKenzie planned it, is there any evidence he thought about or was even aware of the 'awkward ' wind at that location?

[Thomas Dai]

The later in the round ‘havoc-holes’ come the more effect, fear and trepidation they hold I suggest.
They may not be short but each of 16-17-18 at Carnoustie have captured a few victims in the last round numerous times. Has any closing stretch caused consistently more havoc?
Atb

[Pete Lavallee]

The 17th at TPC is certainly more democratic, favoring no one in particular. The1 12th at ANGC works against the right handlers miss pattern, short right or long left. Why else do Phil Mickelson and Mike Weir have the best career scoring averages there?

[Jerry Kluger]

Peter: That thought carries over to Phil's shot a few years ago into 13 from the pine straw:  He explained that a push would land him on the left side of the green while a pull would put him on the right side of the green which in his mind minimized the risk.  One past winner commented that at the 12th the right side of the green is a significantly longer shot than the left.

[Kalen Braley]

Jerry,


Good point.  I took some measurements on Google Earth.  From the middle of the left tee its about 135 yards to the front of the green on the line to the Saturday pin, and 151 to the front of the green on the line to the Sunday pin.  TV seems to make it look fairly perpendicular to the line of play, but its quite the angle...

[Matthew Rose]

The 17th at TPC is certainly more democratic, favoring no one in particular. The1 12th at ANGC works against the right handlers miss pattern, short right or long left. Why else do Phil Mickelson and Mike Weir have the best career scoring averages there?

And Bubba's won twice.

It makes me wonder if a left-hander has a tremendous advantage there in general.... certainly it would seem like #12 does, at least.

[Joe Zucker]

Jerry,


Good point.  I took some measurements on Google Earth.  From the middle of the left tee its about 135 yards to the front of the green on the line to the Saturday pin, and 151 to the front of the green on the line to the Sunday pin.  TV seems to make it look fairly perpendicular to the line of play, but its quite the angle...

If you want a taste of what the course looks like to a lefty, watch this youtube video:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TQrOfOsJP4


It is a transposed highlight real from Bubba's 2014 win.  At the 2:44 mark, you can the 13th if it were to bend right rather than left.  As Jerry said, the misses are just better for lefties given where the hazards are and that leads to an overrepresentation of lefties in the last 20 years.  The tournament is often decided by a shot or two over 72 holes, so if left handedness gives you a 0.5 advantage per round, that is a big help.