[PCCraig]

Our fearless leader, Mr. Morrissett joined Andy Johnson on his Fried Egg Podcast this week.


I found the discussion to be very enjoyable and worth your time for a listen.


I thought Ran's Pinehurst recommendations, dependent on time of year, were spot on and a valuable tip for visitors. It's also fun to have Ran & Andy discuss the 147 Custodians and their thoughts on what makes a course special.


Cool stuff, thanks for putting it together.


I couldn't find a link, but I believe you can find it on iTunes. 

[Mike Sweeney]

Fabulous with morning coffee, probably better with a glass of wine. Thanks for posting this. I will NOT allow my son to tee off this summer at Ballybunion without listening to this on the plane ride over. 

[jeffwarne]

A very good listen on The Fried Egg.


The fearless leader continues his March Madness Radio Tour as my guest on Golf School tomorrow 8 am Channel 92 XM and Channel 208


It's live so post your questions here for Ran or call in at 866-469-0026 during the show.

[Mike Sweeney]

147 was a great addition. When are you going to create "Ran's Rules" for simple Match Play golf?


There was a famous British Amateur who has 11-13 rules for golf, but I lost them in a computer transition. Maybe Sean Arble. Martin, or one of the other maybe-Brexiters know what I am referencing.

[Philip Gawith]

Mike you are referring to the “Dexter rules” framed by Ted Dexter who captained England at cricket and was an acclaimed amateur golfer. They are captured in this article.


Philip







https://finegolf.co.uk/2010/01/25/ted-dexters-ten-commandments/

[Mark Mammel]

I'd like to comment on Ran's observation that dogs should be part of the golf experience. Playing most anywhere in Scotland you see dogs on the course- sometimes, but by no means always, leashed. I think especially of experiences at Askernish, a magical old fashioned layout with dogs welcome. The pure joy of a dog running around enjoying the walk with the rest of us is a great pleasure. Even in dog-friendly Carmel, only Quail Lodge is really dog-friendly. I think the usual arguments against allowing dogs on the golf course are the worst kind- fear-based. The dog may bite someone. The dog will "befoul the foot path" (as a sign in London years ago warned against!). People will be disturbed. Why not find out? In my experience, people who bring there dogs know what to expect, and so do the dogs. Of course, if fellow players don't want the dog around, that's an issue for the group to sort out.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Ran is being beaten up a good bit on the NLU forum for this podcast.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Ran is being beaten up a good bit on the NLU forum for this podcast.

NLU?

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike you are referring to the “Dexter rules” framed by Ted Dexter who captained England at cricket and was an acclaimed amateur golfer. They are captured in this article.

Philip

https://finegolf.co.uk/2010/01/25/ted-dexters-ten-commandments/

Perfect, thanks for posting this Philip.


One and Done Duke has lost and Ran is being mocked on a website called "No Laying Up". The planets are perfectly aligned for one night !! 

[Eric Smith]

Ran is being beaten up a good bit on the NLU forum for this podcast.

A golfer posting under the name Duck Duck Hook on an internet forum can flail away all he wants and never land a punch on the big haired guy.


Talk about rigid?! - see the @councilofdoublestrapmonks

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mike you are referring to the “Dexter rules” framed by Ted Dexter who captained England at cricket and was an acclaimed amateur golfer. They are captured in this article.

Philip

https://finegolf.co.uk/2010/01/25/ted-dexters-ten-commandments/

Perfect, thanks for posting this Philip.


One and Done Duke has lost and Ran is being mocked on a website called "No Laying Up". The planets are perfectly aligned for one night !! 

Wow, I found this NLU forum. Pretty nasty comments. I don't think I'd last very long on that site. The take away for me is that we, on this site, can take for granted the places we are fortunate enough to play. We can come off as snobbish.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Wow, I found this NLU forum. Pretty nasty comments. I don't think I'd last very long on that site. The take away for me is that we, on this site, can take for granted the places we are fortunate enough to play. We can come off as snobbish.

I don't think they were nasty overall. A few, sure, but those are easily ignored as they often had no commentary associated with them. I also don't think they were entirely without merit.

Personally, I was a little surprised at many things Ran said. I teach, and so the golfers I teach often care quite a bit about scoring, for example. They have goals and playing better is one of the many ways they enjoy the game of golf. So his comments, Ran's comments, on keeping score or entering your scores into GHIN struck me as odd, and mildly off-putting. Cool if it works for him. Completely. No problem at all here with how HE chooses to play golf, or enjoy golf. But shouldn't we stop shy of telling others how to enjoy golf? Others enjoy betting with their buddies. Keeping score. Improving. Practicing.

There were other parts. And again, personally, I will give him the benefit of the doubt, in saying that he's speaking for himself. But it didn't come off that way to many people, it seems.

I love all that Ran has done here, have enjoyed his writings, etc. But I'd likely respectfully disagree with him on how golf should be enjoyed by ALL if he was speaking of ALL and not just himself.

[Mike Sweeney]

Personally, I was a little surprised at many things Ran said. I teach, and so the golfers I teach often care quite a bit about scoring, for example. They have goals and playing better is one of the many ways they enjoy the game of golf. So his comments, Ran's comments, on keeping score or entering your scores into GHIN struck me as odd, and mildly off-putting. Cool if it works for him. Completely. No problem at all here with how HE chooses to play golf, or enjoy golf. But shouldn't we stop shy of telling others how to enjoy golf? Others enjoy betting with their buddies. Keeping score. Improving. Practicing.

Nah, get off my course


On the Jeff Warne interview, Ran asked Jeff a question along the lines of "Could better players shave more strokes by understanding the architecture versus grinding on the range?" Jeff was being very polite to his guest and got through it to the next question but my guess is he wanted to say, "No, that architecture stuff will just screw you up!!"


This is all encapsulated in my experience with Bethpage Black. When I moved to NYC, I really did not know private golf course golfers, so Bethpage Black and Montauk became my two go to golf courses. BB was cement style sand, beat up conditions, and because you had to walk, almost always available to play. It was a GCA Mecca of sorts, and if I had golf buddies in Australia, I would have had expensive phone bills to match Ran's phone bills. It was so much fun to play and hit shots around that course.


Enter the restoration, thick rough, back tees, US Open, soon PGA, and the GCA Mecca has tuned into a 5+ hour round for the Card and Pencil crowd. My older son loves new-BB, as he is 50 yards past me. I have probably one more season of being able to beat him as he will soon have time, money, and access to play more golf. That means he has no business playing BB from the back tees. Thus, I willingly pass the baton of BB to the card and pencil crowd but I really don't want them touching Yale.


Colin Sheehan stated in his Fried Egg podcast that the USGA or NCAA wants to add something like 400 yards to Yale to host a National Championship or US Amateur.


Get off my course

PS - I am a lowly non-alumni member at Yale, they can and will do what they think is best for the Yale community.

[Tom_Doak]

Erik:


I hope you have considered that the people you teach are probably not a representative cross-section of the overall population of golfers, any more than this site is, or No Laying Up for that matter.


Most golfers who tell everyone how golf should be, seem to be ignorant of the reasons many other people enjoy the game.  If golf was always just about the card and pencil, my work would never have gained any traction.

[Tom_Doak]

Colin Sheehan stated in his Fried Egg podcast that the USGA or NCAA wants to add something like 400 yards to Yale to host a National Championship or US Amateur.


Get off my course

PS - I am a lowly non-alumni member at Yale, they can and will do what they think is best for the Yale community.

How very quaint.


Let’s make a friendly wager on whether Yale caves on adding 400 yards to attract a big event.  (Those more prestigious Ivies are all about the credentials!)


I already know your favorite charity; I have two you can choose between (or split it).

[Mike Sweeney]

Tom,


Nice try 


To be fair, US Am or NCAA Nationals (Yale has hosted NCAA Regionals), could be the rallying point that Colin and others need to make a real restoration happen. Yale is the most egalitarian course in the Top 100 with both New Haven neighbors and golfers, and I genuinely appreciate the fact that I play/walk with my Autistic son in the late fall season.


I am probably going to play new-Merion with my older son in June as we are on a golf kick that month before he moves to Florida. Let me circle back after I see Merion - the 4th or so version in my life. At least at Merion, they make the Card and Pencil crowd play fast, or they toss the Member

[Scott Warren]

I am always surprised -- and was with Ran's line on this podcast -- when people declare one stringent way in which they enjoy the game of golf and believe it should be played.


Sometimes I like to grind over a strokeplay score, sometimes I enjoy a match with a mate for bragging rights alone, sometimes my friends and I play skins or Wolf for enough money to make us focus and sometimes I go out on my own and just hit shots without tallying a score for the hole or worrying if a low-percentage play doesn't come off.


There's a ton of different ways to enjoy the game of golf, I'd wager that most golfers regularly indulge in a range of them and I would never be so sure of myself as to ridicule the way another person enjoys the game or say it's "wrong". Except riding in carts, but that's obvious. 

[jeffwarne]

Mike-Thanks for listening.


I was struggling to find an answer as I find joy in the two simulataneously.
(Competing and exploring a golf course) have a hard tiime separating setting,feel, conditioning,history, evolution and architecture.


So as far as an answer as to architecture improving one's game, the only answer I had was how much better I tend to play after a week of links golf in tough conditions due to the imagination and shotmaking skills required-and due to turning off mechanics (but that's a type of golf rather than sheer architecture)
I'm just not sure how knowing a Redan from a Biarritz helps a player, but even the most (seemingly)architecturally illiterate player can appreciate an angle or know what shots will work better within the framework of his own abilities.


I guess a better answer is I don't confuse knowing a course with knowing its architecture-and I do think we under rate a touring professional's (useful to him) achitectural knowledge.I will say the more rough and tumble his background (hardpan public courses, gambling, caddying, struggling etc) the wider array of creativity and shotmaking the player will have. Which is where the euros still have us in spades.


I think the NLU comments are taking parts of one interview out of context without reading all of his other fine works.
I will say I don't think we can condone taking our dogs to the course based on the good manners of the dogs (and people) at Swinley Forest. Things might get a bt out of hand at Bethpage yellow ...

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I hope you have considered that the people you teach are probably not a representative cross-section of the overall population of golfers, any more than this site is, or No Laying Up for that matter.

I know. The objection on NLU was - and to be honest I don't remember the exact words, and I don't actively try to find ways to be offended, unlike seemingly many people these days - that Ran was telling others that those who DO seek to improve, care about their scores, practice, etc. aren't truly "getting" golf or they're missing out in some way or something.

Like I said, I didn't pay that much attention. I remember being mildly miffed, as if by caring about my score I was lesser than, but at the end of the day… it doesn't change my life, so I moved on. Then a few days later saw the topic on NLU, where other people clearly didn't just move on.

Most golfers who tell everyone how golf should be, seem to be ignorant of the reasons many other people enjoy the game.  If golf was always just about the card and pencil, my work would never have gained any traction.

I think the objection of those on NLU is that Ran was the one telling golfers how golf "should be." Walking, no scorekeeping, no gambling, screw GHIN, no practice, skipping holes with houses on them (or something? I don't even remember that part), and so on.

I am always surprised -- and was with Ran's line on this podcast -- when people declare one stringent way in which they enjoy the game of golf and believe it should be played.

As am I. I'm assuming for the most part that Ran is just talking about himself, and that maybe he didn't communicate it that clearly. Because it came off to many as if he was telling everyone how to enjoy golf.

[John Kavanaugh]

Am I to understand that No Laying Up has a message board where people insult Ran? Can we Brexit that bitch and keep our discussions in house?

[Jay Mickle]

I think the objection of those on NLU is that Ran was the one telling golfers how golf "should be." Walking, no scorekeeping, no gambling, screw GHIN, no practice, skipping holes with houses on them (or something? I don't even remember that part), and so on.

I play a lot with Ran and yes walking is integral to pure golf, scores are seldom kept because competition is match play, playing fo bragging rights is far more personal and satisfying than exchanging a couple of dollars, practice is a function of ones desire to improve one's game not about enjoyment of the game, if you are only playing a few holes at the end of a day by all means choose those that are most attractive. If this is not your idea of golf that is fine but understand that there are other equally valid reasons for playing the game, like for fun.

[Eric Smith]

Am I to understand that No Laying Up has a message board where people insult Ran?

Yes. Take a gander https://refuge.nolayingup.com/t/the-fried-egg/4269/39

"I think the golf world around him is passing him by"

Reminds me of your old myspace days!

[John Kavanaugh]

Am I to understand that No Laying Up has a message board where people insult Ran?

Yes. Take a gander https://refuge.nolayingup.com/t/the-fried-egg/4269/39

"I think the golf world around him is passing him by"

Reminds me of your old myspace days!

Eric,


Thanks for the link. I'll be skipping the temptation to click, I wouldn't fly a drone over that site.

[Sean_A]

I think Ran is really on about playing with like minded folks.  If you ask him directly I would be very surprised if he cared if someone wants to grind out a score etc etc.  IMO, he is saying that he doesn't want to hang about watching/waiting for someone to grind out a score for handicap purposes etc.  That is very different to keeping a matchplay score where folks pick up and move on.  This style of play leads to quicker golf...hence the slow play comments. Throw in the shorter courses with tees close to greens and its all connected.  The problem with podcasts and interviews is they are a snapshot of many aspects of a person's "output". To stress comments made in this one podcast is not really the point of most golf podcasts.  They are meant to be casual, shoot from the hip conversations.  Don't read too much into them.

I will say Ran completely overplays the UK card as the nirvana of golf.  There are plenty of grinders out there willing to take 4 plus hours for a game.  The style of golf Ran alludes to is fairly rare.

Ciao

[Brian Finn]

Am I to understand that No Laying Up has a message board where people insult Ran?

Yes. Take a gander https://refuge.nolayingup.com/t/the-fried-egg/4269/39

"I think the golf world around him is passing him by"

Reminds me of your old myspace days!

As I am sure you know, Eric, I am the proud author of the post from which you lifted that line.  Below is the full text of what I said in that particular post, for consumption by anyone interested. 

I’ve been reading GCA since I discovered it in late 2001 and have been a board participant (although less frequently lately) for the past 10 years or so. There is no doubt the site has been an invaluable resource for those of us that want to learn more about the history and background of the game, particularly pertaining to the classic golf courses and the men who designed and built them. I have met Ran, and he is an extremely nice guy - he actually invited a group of us back to his house for a few drinks after meeting up at Southern Pines a few years back. It doesn’t get much nicer than that, in my book. He has a great deal of knowledge and interesting, informed opinions on golf course architecture. I’ve loved each of his course write-ups, which have improved greatly over the years, with more (and better) writing by Ran, and bolstered by the improvements in digital photography. The discussion board was once a place for great minds to debate and discuss, and I always loved reading those interactions. It has devolved somewhat today, but still has many excellent contributors mixed in among the noise.

Having said all of this…and I am not sure I will be able to communicate my points really clearly…I think the golf world around him is passing him by. I mean this mostly culturally, not in terms of knowledge. His “147 custodians of the game” espoused so much of what many of us love about the game, in terms of tradition, simplicity, focus on golf (and not all the trappings), etc, but completely whiffed (in my opinion) on counting far more publicly accessible clubs and courses as so-called “custodians.” I love to visit and play all of these top 100 clubs as much as anybody, and rarely don’t entirely enjoy the experience, but the idea that courses and clubs that are still highly exclusionary in their practices, that will never be visited by the vast majority of the golfing world, are somehow the “custodians” of the game reeks of ignorance and elitism. Many of his other comments in writing and presumably (from comments already made on this thread) on podcasts run in parallel with these snobbish positions he has taken.

There are few people better educated on golf architecture than Ran, and there are another 20, 30, maybe even 50 people that participate in GCA that have far more historical and intellectual knowledge of the craft than many of the new players (Andy Johnson, et al) could ever hope to have. However, like so many things, it is not just about what you know, but more so how you share it, who you share it with, and the main messages you are sending as you do so, and in that regard, I believe Andy (and other “up and comers”) will far surpass the likes of Ran in their positive influence on golf and course architecture in short order.

Perhaps this was the beginning of the “passing of the torch” from one generation to the next. If so, it would be entirely appropriate, and in my case, very welcomed.

I’m still not sure I want to listen.

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