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Richard_Mandell

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Braemar Golf Course Hole #5
« on: March 22, 2019, 11:30:19 AM »
Hole 5 - "Cauldron" - 175 Yards



The par three fifth hole at Braemar Golf Course plays slightly uphill from a low area to the base of an oak-covered ridgeline on the property's western boundary. The ridge buffers the entire west side of the golf course from eastward winds coming down from above. The golfer should make sure to get a good look at the green as they descend down the hill from the fourth green as visibility is reduced once they reach the tee.


Green: Visible from the Tee
Red: Not Visible from the Tee


The forms of the tier in the center of the green and the flashed sand are both functions of visibility on this hole which plays just seven feet uphill. Not very much of a rise, but enough that the putting surface (and the sand) would be blind if the features were built on a flat plane. It is interesting how just a nominal change in elevation can dramatically alter visibility.

The bowl-like topography in this area of the property creates a dramatic setting for the golfer facing a putting surface defined by three separate tiers surrounded by three sand bunkers. I always picture in my mind Stanley Thompson's Devil's Cauldron hole at Banff Springs when I look at this hole. I'm not even remotely attempting to compare these two holes or say that this hole is a replica of the Devil's Cauldron hole, but from tee to green the enclosed feel I get reminds me of that. The backdrop of Oak Savanna is reminiscent of the wooded slope behind the Banff hole, as well (unfortunately without the granite escarpment above).




PCCraig

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Re: Braemar Golf Course Hole #5
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2019, 12:37:54 PM »
The 5th is a really strong par-3. A pretty hole and it's fun that it plays slightly uphill to a partially blind green.
H.P.S.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Braemar Golf Course Hole #5
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2019, 05:10:55 PM »

I always like seeing how other architects draw green detail and grading plans.  A few comments/question:


- Love the notes between bunker and green with flow arrows showing drainage away from the bunker.  For some reason, lately I have had trouble getting shapers to keep water from flowing in bunkers.  If they stake to the green edge, it starts falling off right there.  Not that my contours don't show draining back to the green or that I don't try to correct it in the field, but it is surprising how many shapers have lost that long held shaping rule of making sure water flows away from bunkers.  On one project they told me it wasn't a requirement since we were using Better Billy Bunker.  When the ones that they didn't shape correctly proved to wash out, they told the owner "that's how he designed it."


-It appears your back bunker would never have been visible (colored shading be damned) as graded, with a high point of 853 behind a green of the same contour on a slightly uphill hole. 
Do you use cross sections in planning?
When did you figure that out and add the extra fill behind the back left bunker that wasn't shown on the plan? 


- On the other hand, the front left bunker looks more visible than you predicted on plan. BTW, the colored shading is also something I will add on my plans.


- It appears the front left bunker shows 3-6" of fill in front of it on the plan, but was built deeper in the field?  Was a "vision slot" as shown for the right bunker considered?


-Do you actually build sand bunkers to drain out the low side, or build them as holes, which would require a closed contour in the bunker bottoms?


-On another hole, your post indicated concern for circulation.  It appears the front right sand bunker blocks the main path on to the green from the path, as apparently the cart path didn't extend as far as shown on plans.  Grade problems, not worth grading into steep hill (it seems it would be hard to catch up to contours) or budget cuts to path?  [/size][/color]
Believe me, I know about those!  The same contractor took my carefully planned cart parking wide out that was behind a green and moved it to the front, causing walk backs that slow play, etc.  He just "felt" it was better.  (BTW, it doesn't happen often but every so often you find a foreman or shaper who just has to build things different than the architect plans, probably a passive aggressive kind of person, at least in the case I am describing, LOL or not)


Lastly, what, if any software do you use to draw your grading and green detail plans?  If you have mentioned it, I have not seen i or forgotten.


Yes, I understand these technical questions would be better asked in private at ASGCA in May, but I wouldn't have had the visuals in front of me.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

ward peyronnin

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Re: Braemar Golf Course Hole #5
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2019, 09:53:52 AM »
Richard


I like the open look of the surrounding. As a matter of fact I think the hole would benefit by removing the trees left of green. Yet I notice new saplings right in the native and many left behind these trees. Did you call for these( if so educate me on the why please) or is this another unsanctioned refinement
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Richard_Mandell

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Re: Braemar Golf Course Hole #5
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2019, 10:32:04 AM »
Love the notes between bunker and green with flow arrows showing drainage away from the bunker.  For some reason, lately I have had trouble getting shapers to keep water from flowing in bunkers.  If they stake to the green edge, it starts falling off right there.  Not that my contours don't show draining back to the green or that I don't try to correct it in the field, but it is surprising how many shapers have lost that long held shaping rule of making sure water flows away from bunkers.  On one project they told me it wasn't a requirement since we were using Better Billy Bunker.  When the ones that they didn't shape correctly proved to wash out, they told the owner "that's how he designed it."


Jeff, please don't get me started on contractors.  Okay, fine.  I just don't take anything for granted with any of them and my drawings are followed up with explicit instructions NOT to do certain things, like drain into bunkers.  I am also always on-site a lot questioning everything.  It is amazing to me how it seems like we have to start from scratch with many very fundamental items of construction, no matter who the contractor is.  It does greatly help to have my own shapers on site because there is no question with them AND they can watch the contractor's crews.  That is as valuable as the actual shaping.
 
-It appears your back bunker would never have been visible (colored shading be damned) as graded, with a high point of 853 behind a green of the same contour on a slightly uphill hole.
Do you use cross sections in planning?
When did you figure that out and add the extra fill behind the back left bunker that wasn't shown on the plan? 


I don't use cross sections and this is a great example of no matter how detailed one's grading may be thought out, nothing replaces confirmation in the field.  I usually know that there may be visibility challenges with certain features and instruct my shapers to adjust in the field ahead of time.  So right away, as things are rough shaped, we are going back to the tee to ensure visibility.  It takes a bit of time to get it right, but as long as it is happening during the shaping process, visibility can be assured without too much angst.  My guys also know that I want visibility on every penal feature so that is a goal on day one.  Sometimes it is impossible (such as a bunker behind a plateau green).  The extra fill needed was just scraped from around the green complex and was minimal.
The fairway bunker on nine and greenside bunkers behind ten green at Keller are good examples of not achieving visibility that I had to live with.  The greenside bunkers were never going to be visible and that was understood.  But we did spend some time trying to make the fairway bunker on nine visible.  We accomplished it but it was going to come at a cost to the Superintendent so we decided to tone it down instead.  The mounding framing the sand is visible and I decided that would be enough.  So I compromised design for the Super, which was a good tradeoff here. 
 
- On the other hand, the front left bunker looks more visible than you predicted on plan. BTW, the colored shading is also something I will add on my plans.
 
- It appears the front left bunker shows 3-6" of fill in front of it on the plan, but was built deeper in the field?  Was a "vision slot" as shown for the right bunker considered?


The left front greenside bunker was built in the field to transition from existing grade down below to the putting surface up above so the depth just happened.  I like to have it easily accessible from the low side as much as possible.  It helps with golfers and also ensures some variety in bunker depth.  It also looks most naturally-fitting. 
As far as the right bunker, it goes back to ensuring visibility all the time going in.  The plans try to express that but my shaper (in this case the very talented Marc Burger, who has shaped for me for a decade now) knows what the goal is anyway.  The shaping of the approach deviated from the plan as we spent a morning creating a strong ridge feature coming out of the right side of the hole, crossing the middle at a diagonal, and then fading out toward the tee.  The grading plan ensured that we had enough material there to do something creative.

 
-Do you actually build sand bunkers to drain out the low side, or build them as holes, which would require a closed contour in the bunker bottoms?


I always build bunkers as holes with drainage in the bottom.  Sometimes I show a closed contour, sometimes I don't.  My specifications clearly express sand stays in and water stays out so that is one check and balance.  The other checks and balances are my shaper understanding the overall goal and me deliberately checking each bunker in the field. 
So I didn't show a closed contour on these bunkers because it would not show up on the plans clearly enough. At this scale, the overall idea of the sand sloping in a particular direction was what I was trying to express.
 
-On another hole, your post indicated concern for circulation.  It appears the front right sand bunker blocks the main path on to the green from the path, as apparently the cart path didn't extend as far as shown on plans.  Grade problems, not worth grading into steep hill (it seems it would be hard to catch up to contours) or budget cuts to path? 
Believe me, I know about those!  The same contractor took my carefully planned cart parking wide out that was behind a green and moved it to the front, causing walk backs that slow play, etc.  He just "felt" it was better.  (BTW, it doesn't happen often but every so often you find a foreman or shaper who just has to build things different than the architect plans, probably a passive aggressive kind of person, at least in the case I am describing, LOL or not)
 
Again, it is amazing to me how contractors just change things indiscriminately.  I tell them up front not to even bother before talking to me.  Sometimes I give them a shot to change something because they may have a better idea, but it usually involves their desire to cut a corner.  Of course, they complain when I make them go back and do things the way I directed in the first place (which would have saved them money in the first place).  One even tried to call it a change order.  That's a LOL. 
I do try to work as many features around circulation as I can.  Sometimes it sets up for the overall strategy of the hole and how that hole relates to the other holes.  But sometimes I need to create variety and there just may be a bunker between the cart path and the green (as is the case for hole five).  If I can solve this issue 80% of the time while creating strategic variety, it is a win and better than not thinking about it at all.
 
Lastly, what, if any software do you use to draw your grading and green detail plans?  If you have mentioned it, I have not seen it or forgotten.
 
I use Autocad for all of my plans.  Let's talk more in Phoenix.
 
Ward  - I did call for new trees to be planted here in an attempt to increase the acreage of Oak Savanna, which is an environment that has been lost to development over the years in the upper Midwest.  We planted Bur Oaks, Red Oaks, and Northern Pin Oaks and added 33.85 acres of Oak Savanna Restoration in the process.  This was a key move in securing permits very quickly.  But the most important thing to know is that the trees planted are far enough away from the playing corridors that even at full maturity, they won't create tight spaces.  I am not one to add trees but in the right places, they can be an asset to permitting without compromising design.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Braemar Golf Course Hole #5
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2019, 11:22:48 AM »

Richard,


Thanks for the detailed answer.  I wasn't being critical, its just that I know from similar experiences that when an architect shows shading for visibility or special notes of any kind, it is usually a result of hard learned experience.



Back in LA school, I recall the theory was that you shouldn't need notes, and your construction plans (including grading) should speak for themselves, if followed.  I still limit notes, but like you, find there is just enough free form in golf that contour lines alone really don't cut it.  On the job I was referencing, it took me a while to figure out that the first shapers on the job (who worked a lot for Mike Young) weren't used to grading plans, and preferred slope arrows to contour lines.  I added some on later plans, or red marked prints of the early ones, but it still killed me.  I mean, to me, (from experience) a 0.1' change in grade (not to mention the 0.5' changes some make if I don't have exact spots on exit swales)) changes a slope from a 2% to 3% in a real hurry, so its important.  Why not build to grade (presumably doing it right) in the first place.


I also know notes can be lot easier to get across than contours and saves redraw time.  I recall when we couldn't get a plan to cut and fill balance, Killian and Nugent casually told us to make a note to raise (or lower) the bench mark 0.5-1' as needed, knowing a foot equaled 1613 CY of fill.  If we were short that amount, we simply made a note to lower the green and it all works out.


There are times a contractor can fiddle, and there are times they cannot.  I recall a green the contractor built at grade to save some fill.  However, even on a downhill hole sometimes a green needs to be up a few feet to show well from the fw.  That said, even a note to that effect "front of green must be at least 3 feet above natural grade" seemed to get ignored.


And the absolute funniest thing that ever happened when a shaper took things into his own hands was my last project for Ken Killian at Desert Rose in LV.  The plan showed a pretty deep grass bunker but the shaper told me he figured it shouldn't be that deep.  I told him to go back to digging and went on to another green. I look over and don't see his dozer, and figured he was either getting fuel or got upset and decided to leave the job.  Just then, I noticed the top of the dozer climbing out of the grass bunker.  When I got there he said "You want deep, you're getting deep, dammit."  Luckily, the owner kind of liked it and it stayed at least until the course got remodeled a few years ago by Randy Heckenkemper.
That said, I'm like you in that if a shaper seems talented, it usually makes sense to let him have a bit of freedom, and they do a better job if they fell involved in the process anyway.  But, don't get me started on shapers either.  I once threatened to limit a combative shaper to the forward tees, noting it was an area he could "excel" at.  That put him in a little more contributory mode, LOL.


Will talk in AZ, mostly at the bar, I'm sure!  The stories we can tell!
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 11:30:14 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Richard_Mandell

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Re: Braemar Golf Course Hole #5
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2019, 11:31:23 AM »
Jeff,


Thanks for your response, never once thought criticism was coming from you, just curiosity.  As far as shapers go, only my one or two guys that have worked for me over time get any freedom at all. 


I think notes are absolutely crucial.  Why not give as much information as possible to someone?  It eliminates incorrect interpretation.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Braemar Golf Course Hole #5
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2019, 11:47:17 AM »

Richard,


I agree on notes.  I just recall a landscape architect professor banging his fist on the table while explaining the concept.  He felt that strongly about it, and I guess it made an impression on me.  (And, Killian and Nugent felt similarly, coming out of the RB Harris green detail "bed sheets" school of thought.  They were pretty precise.  I remember Nugent teaching me how to stake a green.  When he would get grades close enough (to my eye) he would have me really fiddle with the survey rod until it was right (to him) I once asked him how high to raise the rod on the stake and he responded "Just a C*** hair."  Typical construction site crudity, but I couldn't stop laughing.  I wouldn't pull that phrase out now, that is for sure.


On an early job with LUI, somehow, Bill Kubly and I were staking a green.  Aside from the Mayor noting the "high priced talent" doing the staking on his nickel, it turned out we had a different training.  As per above, Nugent (and thus I) wanted to read the grade on the rod.  Kubly was taught by Dick Watson (especially outside the green) that if the plan called for a fill of 5 feet, pound the stake and write "F-5".  I showed him a few examples of where that didn't always work out if the topo map was off (and it really is just representative)


A story went around Chicago that architect David Gill insisted on contractors staking to plan at 0, 22.5 degree angles, etc.  One contractor told the story that you couldn't start building until Gill checked the grades, and then he would check each one after to approve sub-grade.  They claim they built every stake to grade, but left a deep hole in the middle of the green and Gill didn't notice, which seems a bit of tall tale. However, they enjoyed telling it.


Most shapers prefer a more minimalistic staking, at least outside the green edges.  A few will stake interior contours on greens to get them close.  It takes all kinds. 


I guess I just need to stop thinking all the younger guys were trained the same way I was.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 01:03:23 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Richard_Mandell

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Re: Braemar Golf Course Hole #5
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2019, 11:56:55 AM »
Jeff,


One place that I ask for creativity from my shapers is in the initial shaping of the green based on my drawings.  Sometimes, there is "potentially" conflicting direction from me that requires the shaper to connect the dots, so to speak.  I want to create multiple features that require some thought but I would rather throw it all out there and see how it shakes out.  We then review things in the field and once the subgrade is in a good place, the contractor takes over and provides the grid on ten-foot centers.  I will review that and then they make adjustments from there.  We repeat the grid process on the final surface as well.  We don't create a grid first.  Funny how many of those guys were so precise with things back then but their greens were pretty basic.

Jason Topp

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Re: Braemar Golf Course Hole #5
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2019, 12:29:08 PM »
Jeff and Richard - thanks for having this discussion on the forum.  I find it very educational.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Braemar Golf Course Hole #5
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2019, 01:09:49 PM »

Richard,


Your creativity reminds me of what Pete Dye said he told shapers, "I'm not really sure what I want, but mess around with it a while, and I'll tell you if you are getting close."  I think the real answer is somewhere in between, especially if the Owner's rep is standing right there wondering why he paid an architect to play in the sand box and delegate to others.


While I have had problems with shapers the first time, sometimes working with them again is even more problematic.  One took liberties with my green contours, raising the 2% to the max of 3% slopes in the green.  They were always more artistic, but after the opening of the first course I got critiqued as too severe, which I wasn't sure he would have heard.  He starts with "Just like the last time?" to which I had to gently let him know that no, we were going to have to soften the grades a bit.  First few greens, was pretty sure he didn't get - or take to - the message grumbling about $%((##*** golfers wanting it too easy, which I could sympathize with.  OT, but that is why I find the Copperhead thread so encouraging.  2-3% or a bit more really are acceptable contours (every day golfers prefer them) that work with both daily play and tournaments of any level.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Braemar Golf Course Hole #5
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2019, 12:21:13 PM »

Richard,


[font=]-Do you actually build sand bunkers to drain out the low side, or build them as holes, which would require a closed contour in the bunker bottoms?[/font][font=&amp][/font]
[font=&amp]I always build bunkers as holes with drainage in the bottom.  Sometimes I show a closed contour, sometimes I don't.  My specifications clearly express sand stays in and water stays out so that is one check and balance.  The other checks and balances are my shaper understanding the overall goal and me deliberately checking each bunker in the field.  [/size][/font][/color]
[font=&amp][/font]
[font=&amp]So I didn't show a closed contour on these bunkers because it would not show up on the plans clearly enough. At this scale, the overall idea of the sand sloping in a particular direction was what I was trying to express.[/font]
[font=&amp]


Richard,


For some reason I got to thinking about these comments last night, from my admittedly OCD POV.  Coming from the Chicago School, I was taught that you really can draw anything you want.  I had one draftsman who never put the bottom contour in, and I never understood it.  In fact, I took it that there really wasn't enough room in that bunker size to have one!  I had a moment of clarity many years back flying into Long Island for the Open at Shinny.  From the air, I noticed that most bunkers were wider that we usually draw them (like your front left bunker.) Do some math making the following assumptions - That the lowest lip of the high side needs to be at least 1 foot above the front lip, (1.5 works better, and uphill, I find it often needs to be 2 feet to avoid one bunker looking like 2 or 3 pot bunkers), say a 30% slope around the first foot down from the lip to kick balls away from it (a la Ross writings) and them max 25% slope down to the low point.  Actually, at the lip of the "tongue" you would probably be near the low point anyway, which I have found need to be at least as wide as a sand rake, or 5 feet.  Then figure another foot up (minimum) to the front lip from the low spot and you get:


Steep area under lip - 1.5 foot x 3.33 feet (for 30% slope - 5 feet)
Intermediate Slope to flat low bottom - 1 foot at 10% or so (can vary from 5 to 20%) - 5-20 feet
Flat Bottom - 5 feet (really gentle bowl all the way through
[/font]
[/size][/font][/color]
[font=&amp]Steep area under front lip - 1 foot x 3.33 feet (for 30% slope - 3.33 feet)[/font]



Total minimum of "narrow point of bunker as it faces golfer to allow vision to top of sand" - 18 feet to 33 feet.  At one time I ran the math and the minimum width facing golfers came out to an astonishing (to me) 29 feet, but I have since realized that many bunker lip slopes (first foot) are more like 66%, even 30% looks pretty mild in the field and 25% is the typically maxed out grade for sand on slopes (without liners)


At any rate, whenever one of my draftsmen (no, never hired a female) drew a skinny bunker, without a 5 foot circle (or 5 x 6+ oval) I made them correct it.  Then, as mentioned, that was my training and nature.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach