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Peter Flory

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2019, 11:06:00 PM »
Might want to start your research on Overhills here - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46197.0.html


Yes, thanks for pointing it out.  That is a great thread and is everything that I love about this forum. 

V. Kmetz

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2019, 11:12:16 PM »
With that better understanding PF, I think Elmwood is potentially the best of my possibles, as most of the Tillie can be discerned, even post Tull.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Jon Wiggett

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2019, 02:14:22 AM »
I am not sure how much is still there but what about the original 18 holes at Princes? I am sure there would be plenty of input on it from other site users.

Peter Flory

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2019, 03:02:03 AM »
OK, I was able to successfully find usable LIDAR for Overhills and import it into my software.  This is definitely going to be the next project for me after Lido.  I'm really busy with some other things in the next few months, but here is a sneak peak based on 15 minutes of messing with the file.  I'll move it to an Overhills thread in the future or will maybe start a new one so that I don't hijack what has already been done there. 

OVERHILLS:

The first hole that I identified was the 5th, a dramatically uphill par 3.


But the strange thing is that the scorecard and the aerial images for this show that there was a green perched on top of the hill about 170 from the tee.  However, in the ground, at least to my eye, there is a green complex further back that sits about 205-210 from the tee.  There is a really clear bunker carve out and it is a nicer table top than where the aerials show the green.  Did Ross originally create a hole that was later scaled back?  This is just an example of what is neat about this process.  Here is a screenshot of the 210 yard green complex from the left side of the fairway (note that I didn't touch the ground, just quickly painted on green, fairway, and sand).  I also added a green where the aerial and scorecard shows it.  That long strip bunker is in back of the shorter green, but fronts the longer one. 

There is clearly only one teeing ground because it is a really flat spot before the steep uphill climb to the hole.  That deep smaller bunker shown in the image below would make no sense in the shorter version of this hole, so it wouldn't exist.  However, 210 with this severe upslope and a semi blind fronting bunker also seems extremely difficult even with modern clubs.  Maybe it was supposed to be a par 3/4 in the beginning?  Hopefully Ross's drawings are preserved to shed light on this. 



The longer green that fits my theory really looks green-like in the contouring:


Here are just a few other pics of the course with the surfaces that I splashed down:

Approach to the 4th w/ fairway only.  No green or sand.  But the bunkers and the green complex are clear. 


Approach to the 15th.  This green is perfectly clear, especially in back where the table top ends.




Brian- thanks for the suggestion on this course.  This is highly doable and will be really fun to restore, especially the back nine since it has been out of commission for so long. 







Thomas Dai

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2019, 05:50:45 AM »
Golf features on previously NLE GB courses tended to be obliterated during WW2 what with the construction of coastal defences, airfields etc and inland ploughed up for crop growth. And of course WW2 itself meant the end for many a course that had operated up until that time.
Atb

Kyle Harris

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2019, 06:00:36 AM »
Augus


Nevermind.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Niall C

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2019, 07:35:48 AM »
Peter

How about the MacKenzie course at Strichen in Aberdeenshire ? Apart from one green site for a par 3 that has had a house built on it, it is still undeveloped. It was laid out on farmland in the early 1920's and at some point it reverted back to farmland. Last time I looked it was used for grazing. I suspect thought that it has been ploughed a number of times since it reverted back to agriculture.

I've had a look on google to see if you can see any humps or bumps where a green/tee/bunker might have been but without any luck. We do however have a plan of the course. Let me know if it is of interest and I'll forward it on.

Niall

Dave Maberry

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2019, 07:54:45 AM »
Here's an article from PineStraw magazine on the third nine at Southern Pines:


https://www.pinestrawmag.com/fallow-ground-fertile-memories/




Thomas Dai

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2019, 08:18:57 AM »
Here's a GCA thread about a NLE course in hilly Mid-Wales - Rhayader by a certain Dr Mackenzie -


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52664.msg1208947.html#msg1208947
Google satmap - https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3050954,-3.5249817,3548m/data=!3m1!1e3


Atb
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 08:32:35 AM by Thomas Dai »

Brian Ross

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2019, 08:59:41 AM »
Brian- thanks for the suggestion on this course.  This is highly doable and will be really fun to restore, especially the back nine since it has been out of commission for so long.

Excellent stuff, Peter. I can't wait to see more. Regarding the 5th hole, Ross's plans show a 172 yard par 3 with a bunker back left and nothing in front of the green.



My guess is that the long narrow bunker in your image is the bunker behind the green. The 1940 aerial of this hole suggests the same.



I can't quite figure out what the white circle is on the middle of the green. It appears to be on all of the greens, though. Perhaps they had let the greens go and had converted back to sand greens during this time? I'm unsure.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 09:02:29 AM by Brian Ross »
Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in.

http://www.rossgolfarchitects.com

David Federman

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2019, 09:01:35 AM »
Joe- yes -  Blue Heron Pines East was a fabulous Steve Smyers course that once hosted the USGA Public Links. It was sold off for a development which never occurred. It is  grown over, but the bones are still there, I believe. Love to see it restored. It was great fun - designed to be played fast and firm, links style.

David Stamm

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2019, 10:23:23 AM »
El Toro in Irvine, CA is still on the ground I believe. One of Wiiliam P Bell's military courses.




San Luis Rey Downs, a William F Bell, is still there.




Frankly, we have lost so many courses the last 5 years in San Diego that there are quite a few that I could cite.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

MCirba

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2019, 10:28:05 AM »
Courses close to me that are shuttered but left to nature so far include;

Mount Pocono Golf Course (9) - Walter Travis, later Robert White
Wiscasset Golf Course (9) - Robert White
Mountain Manor Golf Course - (36) - Family Built

The first two Joe Bausch, Matt Frey and I walked a few years ago.   Mountain Manor is particularly eerie because up until November of 2018 when it burned to the ground, there was also an old abandoned Resort Hotel on the property and numerous cabins and outbuildings that made the place feel like a ghost town.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Peter Flory

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2019, 12:16:36 PM »
Peter

How about the MacKenzie course at Strichen in Aberdeenshire ? Apart from one green site for a par 3 that has had a house built on it, it is still undeveloped. It was laid out on farmland in the early 1920's and at some point it reverted back to farmland. Last time I looked it was used for grazing. I suspect thought that it has been ploughed a number of times since it reverted back to agriculture.

I've had a look on google to see if you can see any humps or bumps where a green/tee/bunker might have been but without any luck. We do however have a plan of the course. Let me know if it is of interest and I'll forward it on.

Niall


That is very intriguing.  It would be critical that the features are still there, even if they are dampened.  Can you show me the exact spot of the course and I'll work on getting lidar?  I may have a friend that would take it on.  If I do it, it would have to be 6+ months from now. 

Cliff Hamm

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2019, 12:34:35 PM »
Beavertail Golf Club in Jamestown, RI.  9 hole Tillinghast design, which could not survive WWII.  It is now has walking trails and called Conanicut Battery.  Was originally a battery during the Revolution.


In the early 90's Steve Smyers was going to develop it into 18 holes with input from Brad Faxxon, but did not come to b[size=78%]e.[/size]





Peter Flory

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2019, 12:42:38 PM »
With the diagram that Brian posted, I traced the hole to scale on the ground.  It makes way more sense now. 

Here are a few screenshots and then I'm really going to put this away for a while:

From the tee with the morning sun:


Raised view with afternoon sun and roughed up tee box for realism. 


Better view of green site and cruelty of missing to the right of the green... or left, or short.


Drone view showing the back bunker (I went with the Ross drawing because it matched the indent on the ground). 


And on my first play through... I bogeyed it.  Left it short in the rough.  The hole plays almost 2 clubs long.  Sorry for the white socks- didn't have time to toss on the plus fours. 

« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 12:45:12 PM by Peter Flory »

Peter Flory

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2019, 01:52:08 PM »
Here's an article from PineStraw magazine on the third nine at Southern Pines:

https://www.pinestrawmag.com/fallow-ground-fertile-memories/


Very neat.  Thanks for the link.  Sounds like they are just asking too much for the property. 

David_Tepper

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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #43 on: March 07, 2019, 06:44:13 PM »
One of Emmet's last courses, Hob Nob Hil in Salisbury CT, still has many of it's hole corridors relatively intact even though it was closed in the '40s. It's like a roller coaster ride in some places. I took Mark Chalfant there last year, he was ecstatic.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tim Leahy

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2019, 03:41:20 AM »
Is Malibu CC still going to be rebuilt? Closed several years ago but was supposed to be rebuilt.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Pat Burke

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2019, 03:53:30 AM »
Might want to start your research on Overhills here - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46197.0.html


It’s the one I would have mentioned.....thank you

Pat Burke

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2019, 03:56:01 AM »
El Toro in Irvine, CA is still on the ground I believe. One of Wiiliam P Bell's military courses.




San Luis Rey Downs, a William F Bell, is still there.




Frankly, we have lost so many courses the last 5 years in San Diego that there are quite a few that I could cite.


Quail Ranch


<edit>   Looks like most of El Toro has been graded away for agriculture fields.
Couple of hole remains on east side of the course, but main body of course looks plowed under

« Last Edit: March 11, 2019, 11:53:50 AM by Pat Burke »

BCrosby

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2019, 10:18:58 PM »
Your reference to a military course brings to mind the George Cobb course at Ft. McPherson in Atlanta. A pretty good course. They stopped maintaining it several years ago when the base closed, as I understand it. Anyone have an update?


Bob 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2019, 12:51:07 PM »
Another one for down the road, although I'm not sure how much information you'll be able to gather about what the course looked like when built.

Tate Mountain Estates, Georgia - Stiles and Van Kleek

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

BCrosby

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Re: NLE courses still in the ground
« Reply #49 on: March 11, 2019, 07:02:53 AM »
Thanks Sven. I know the area pretty well, but have not heard of the course. I'll see what I can find out.


Bob