NLE courses still in the ground

[Peter Flory]

Are there any notable NLE courses that haven't been developed over where the initial contouring might still be intact (even if now covered in vegetation/ forest)?  When I wrap up the Lido digital build I want to try one where I can use the LIDAR elevation data to greatly speed up the process. 


My guess is that this is a lot more likely to occur in the UK than the US.  The UK LIDAR datasets are spottier, but it might still be possible to attain them, especially is the course is on the coast. 


Let me know if any of you have any suggestions. 

[Joe Bausch]

I'm pretty sure Blue Heron Pines West is pretty much still there on the ground.  It is in Egg Harbor City, NJ.  I regret not having ever played it.

[Matthew Petersen]

Emerald River, a course in Laughlin, NV has been NLE for over a decade, but based on the most recent aerials there's been no development. Several holes are still quite visible and those that aren't it's basically due to growth from the river.


But, this was never a "notable" course.

[Joe Zucker]

What about the C&C course in Florida Sugerloaf?  I remember seeing some pictures that showed overhead views of overgrown fairways and nothing on top of the hole corridors.  This was probably a few years ago, so I'm not sure of its current state.

[Brian Ross]

The third nine at Southern Pines Golf Club, The Pit, and The Carolina are three in the Pinehurst area that immediately come to mind. The most intriguing, though, maybe even the most intriguing one in the country (to me, at least) is Overhills which is now part of Fort Bragg. I'm not sure whether you can find LIDAR data for that site, though, being on a military base and all.

[Thomas Dai]

Not just NLE courses either.
There are also NLE holes, features and even greensites like this 90 yr old original MacKenzie green that hasn’t been played on for 80 yrs - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,64557.msg1538757.html#msg1538757
Shame the photos have disappeared. I’ll see if they can be reinstated.
Atb


PS - there is a website that details all the NLE courses in GB and I. See - [size=78%]https://www.golfsmissinglinks.co.uk/[/size]

[Peter Flory]

The third nine at Southern Pines Golf Club, The Pit, and The Carolina are three in the Pinehurst area that immediately come to mind. The most intriguing, though, maybe even the most intriguing one in the country (to me, at least) is Overhills which is now part of Fort Bragg. I'm not sure whether you can find LIDAR data for that site, though, being on a military base and all.

I'll check.  You're probably right though- that it is redacted. 

[Greg Tallman]

Bay of Dreams / Bahia de Los Sueños, a very good Doak design about 90 minutes north of Cabo.


Various parties showing interest of reviving the course/project. Hope it happens.

[Kalen Braley]

Wingpointe near Salt Lake International.  Been closed for a few years now and you can still make out bunkering and greens and fairways if you knew where they were before...

[Ally Mcintosh]

The original Timber Point?

[Jeff Evagues]

There are 2 in Hawaii that are just jungle now.

[Edward Glidewell]

I think there are several in the Myrtle Beach area.


I'm pretty sure Bay Tree Plantation is still completely undeveloped and it had 3 courses (hosted the LPGA Championship at some point in the 1970s). Jaguar's Lair was constructed (grown in, sand in bunkers, etc.) except for the greens but never actually opened for play and it's overgrown now. I don't think they've started building anything on the former Waterway Hills, either. There are probably others.


With that said, though, those courses were probably all very flat. Also wouldn't call any of them notable, other than whichever course at Bay Tree hosted the LPGA Championship, I suppose.

[Matthew Rose]

You could probably just get lidar that's out of date.

I know a few of the Perfect Golf courses out there are from older data - the recreation of Torrey Pines North that is out there is pre-Weiskopf, as one example. So maybe something recently closed might still be intact on older data. Anything renovated in the last year or two, like Inverness for example, will also probably be the pre-reno data.

I have lidar from a couple of local courses that I don't like that I've acquired mainly for the purpose of doing my own fantasy re-designs on top of them. Recently I did this with the muni I grew up on, although I also did a standard, untouched version of it first so I could have two different ones to play.

[Pete_Pittock]

The old Juniper course is very visible in Redmond, OR.  Just above the NW end of the NW/SE runway of the airport.

[Peter Flory]

The original Timber Point?

The problem with that one is that the features are lost.  I just looked at it in comparison to the original and I was surprised by the number of holes that are still in their position in the original routing.  They just really crammed it all together with the additional holes.  Such a shame. 

[Peter Flory]

The third nine at Southern Pines Golf Club, The Pit, and The Carolina are three in the Pinehurst area that immediately come to mind. The most intriguing, though, maybe even the most intriguing one in the country (to me, at least) is Overhills which is now part of Fort Bragg. I'm not sure whether you can find LIDAR data for that site, though, being on a military base and all.

I found and downloaded lidar data for it, but I'm not sure if it is usable.  Doing some troubleshooting on it to see if I can load it. 

This would be the perfect example of what I'm looking for.  Something that was once great that can be virtually revived and studied in new ways.

I know that there are lots of recent NLEs that haven't been scraped, but there is generally so much information on those that it wouldn't reveal anything new. 

I do want to do the Illinois Golf Club (the Tillie version that morphed into Green Acres CC in the 40s and went brown 3 years ago).  But that will take a lot of sculpting and guess work.  2 of the holes were scraped for the driving range, so those will have to be completely recreated. 

[Michael Wolf]

Gil Hanse's Capstone Club outside of Tuscaloosa. Playing corridors, bunkers, outline of green sites all pretty easy to follow on Google Maps


They've been advertising the restarted housing development in last couple of years. But the course just sits untouched.


Michael

[Brian Ross]

I found and downloaded lidar data for it, but I'm not sure if it is usable.  Doing some troubleshooting on it to see if I can load it. 

This would be the perfect example of what I'm looking for.  Something that was once great that can be virtually revived and studied in new ways.

Peter, I'm glad you found some data and hope you're able to get it to work. I think it would be an interesting study and there should be enough photographic evidence, both aerial and ground level, to pull it off. Would be awesome to see.

[Sven Nilsen]

Might want to start your research on Overhills here - http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46197.0.html

[BCrosby]

Gil Hanse's Capstone Club outside of Tuscaloosa. Playing corridors, bunkers, outline of green sites all pretty easy to follow on Google Maps

They've been advertising the restarted housing development in last couple of years. But the course just sits untouched.

Michael

I regret I never got to Capstone. I had heard good things about it and was surprised when it closed. I was under the impression there was some sort of tie-in with the U of A golf team. I take it that was not the case?


Bob 

[BCrosby]

Tom Hutchinson built a course for the Carnegie family on Cumberland Island in the late 1890s. He died there after a fall from a horse. His course went to seed at some point, though a couple of its hole corridors are still mowed and used as the island landing strip. I'd guess much of the rest of the course is still there under the pines and palmetto.


Bob

[V. Kmetz]

I'm not sure what is meant by a "notable course" in PF's original question or if any ol' NLE with discernible measurement conditions is what;s desired...

In the latter category, by recency:

Elmwood CC - Greenburgh, NY - just shuttered in 2017, don't believe any development work has started yet...originally a 9-hole course called Pelhamhurst became a full-on Tillie called Elmsford in 1926 and remained so until two separate renovations by Tull in 1954 and 1960, which is the era it became Elmwood. Depending on suitability for PF's project, might also be fun to discover a few of the Tillie bones left in to the extensive Tull renovations (which I think I calculated left about 7 Tillie holes in some state of visibility, but drastically altered routing and features for the other 11 holes' worth of the property).

Ridgeway - White Plains, NY - closed in 2007 and after a brief season or two of perhaps gang-mowing is now starting to really go to seed...I thought the original plan was to seel it to an International School, but I've seen no evidence of any new building in the clubhouse half of the property...depending on the purpose again, might be fun as Fenway concelaed the bones of a previous iteration on the property - Gedney Farms was one of the immediate preceding names.

Carvel (Sports City) CC - Pine Plains, NY - the ice-cream magnate's once expansive/long defucnt-Catskills/Grossingers/Concord-like plans for a upstate-resort/golf community was purchased by the Durst interests in 2006(?) and since local opposition resisted real-estate plans for the property, it has been locked in stasis since 2011-12, and is being reclaimed by nature.

Lastly, an oddball, kind of kooky one...

Old Oaks (9 hole "West Course") - A very under-the-radar Tillie, once featured a 9-hole (what would be called now, but not then) 'Executive" course that wrapped around the clubhouse in a "J"-umbrella handle manner...When 1-684 went through in 1963, construction essentially eliminated Holes 5-7...sometime later, tennis courts, gardens and an expanded range covered over Holes 8 & 9...But though well overgrown and infrequently gang-mowed, most of Holes 1-4 still exist under the rolling meadow, with the green complexes of 2 & 3 still plainly visible (maybe the 1st green and 4th green too, just can't accurately recall now).

[Peter Flory]

Tom Hutchinson built a course for the Carnegie family on Cumberland Island in the late 1890s. He died there after a fall from a horse. His course went to seed at some point, though a couple of its hole corridors are still mowed and used as the island landing strip. I'd guess much of the rest of the course is still there under the pines and palmetto.


Bob

This one could be interesting.  Do we have any information on it?  I would need to know the location and then I can import the lidar and see if the bones are there. 

[Mike Schott]

New Rogell in Detroit. It had been sold to a large local church who wanted to sell it to someone who would convert it to a cemetery. They never received approval on the zoning. The city is now looking into using grant money to convert the land into a public park and an area for storm water retention. Parts of the course regularly flooded back in the day.

[Peter Flory]

I'm not sure what is meant by a "notable course" in PF's original question or if any ol' NLE with discernible measurement conditions is what;s desired...

I should have been more specific.  I guess that I'm really looking for NLE Golden Age courses or earlier that have "returned to nature" rather than paved over.  The last example that you gave would be interesting to me, except that I'd really like to digitally revive an entire course rather than lost holes. 


In the UK for instance, the lost Askernish golf course would have been perfect if they didn't already do the real excavation.