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Ken Fry

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2019, 04:27:41 PM »
Then that is not water in the background of the photo!
What a dramatic difference compared to the current green.
Ken
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Mike Sweeney

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2019, 04:40:29 PM »
Quote from: Sven Nilsen on March 09, 2019, 11:42:38 AM
April 1917 Golf Illustrated notes the punchbowl green was on the 2nd hole.


Something still seems off as the 2nd hole plays downhill, and the "mystery green" seems to be on a high spot:

Looking at the 2nd green:


Mystery green:

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Sven Nilsen

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2019, 02:03:24 PM »
Not sure if it helps the conversation, but here are two drawings of the routing of the first 9 holes built.






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Mike Sweeney

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2019, 08:18:02 PM »
Quote from: Sven Nilsen on March 10, 2019, 02:03:24 PM
Not sure if it helps the conversation, but here are two drawings of the routing of the first 9 holes built.


Fabulous!!


It's 1915, let's build a course.  :D :)
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Kyle Harris

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2019, 09:18:19 PM »
Mike,


I think that can be the current 2nd green site, with the camera angled in such a manner to render the oersoective in the background more level than it is.


That would have been a neat punchbowl.
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http://kylewharris.com

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Mike Sweeney

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2019, 07:13:22 PM »
Quote from: Kyle Harris on March 11, 2019, 09:18:19 PM
Mike,


I think that can be the current 2nd green site, with the camera angled in such a manner to render the oersoective in the background more level than it is.


That would have been a neat punchbowl.


I don't 100% disagree, but look at the sketches that Sven posted. Raynor sketched a really square green at #2, and that is Not a square green in the "mystery photo".


If you read the beginning of my very dated essay, the holes were built from models. In addition, I really don't remember, but wouldn't the holes on #2 be some of the original houses as they were walking distance to the Colony House? I see no houses in the "Mystery Hole". In a nutshell, I hear what you are saying, but still not there...
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 08:11:56 PM by Mike Sweeney »
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"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2019, 10:43:10 AM »
Mike,


This picture was most likely taken between January 1917 and April 1917.  The April 1917 article in Golf Illustrated that Sven alluded to also had pictures of Wilfrid Reid teeing off on the 6th hole, so this exhibition match was very early.  Whether the Olmsted Brothers started building houses to the south of the 2nd hole by 1916 or 1917, I am not sure.  I do know that many of the early houses were built around the lake.


When I look at Joe's modern picture, I can't see any houses along side the 2nd hole either. Granted the photos are taken from two different directions and 96 years apart. 


I have never stepped foot on the property so I am at the mercy of the 1917 reporter. Here is the quote from Golf Illustrated., April 1917:


"The course is laid out over rolling country splendidly adapted to golf.  The punchbowl green on the second hole, and the full second shot uphill to the home green present spectacles as pleasing to the eye as may be found on any Northern links.  A few rounds at Mountain Lake will refute forever the idea that golf in Florida must be played on flat courses."




Bret
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Jeff Schley

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2019, 04:22:49 PM »
Question.... does anyone know if you have to be a homeowner to join here still?  I heard that was no longer the case. A friend is going to move down Florida in a year or two and was talking about clubs to join and I brought up ML.  Albeit kind of a ways away from the traditional areas to retire in Florida.
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John Butler

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2019, 10:57:24 AM »
Mountain Lake has a Non-Resident Member program.  You must be sponsored by a Member and have your main home be outside a 100-mile radius.  From what I know, the punchbowl has always been #15 green.  #15 was among the second nine holes built later by Raynor.
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Kyle Harris

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2019, 12:34:07 PM »
The houses on the second at Mountain Lake are down the left side across the public road. They'd be located in the field area shown on the right side of the old photo.


Also in the old photo there appears to be a group in the distance that would be on the 1st green.


If this was the 15th, they'd be a little too far to be on the 14th green - as the 15th hole is approximately 300 yards. Furthermore, the 14th fairway would be visible in the field to the right.
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http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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Mike Sweeney

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #35 on: March 14, 2019, 09:11:29 PM »
Quote from: Kyle Harris on March 14, 2019, 12:34:07 PM

Also in the old photo there appears to be a group in the distance that would be on the 1st green.



Or could that be the second green in the distance. The hole now looks like #3, to me. It would not be the first time a press agent got the holes wrong.
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"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Kyle Harris

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2019, 10:46:37 PM »
Quote from: Mike Sweeney on March 14, 2019, 09:11:29 PM
Quote from: Kyle Harris on March 14, 2019, 12:34:07 PM

Also in the old photo there appears to be a group in the distance that would be on the 1st green.



Or could that be the second green in the distance. The hole now looks like #3, to me. It would not be the first time a press agent got the holes wrong.


I see that now. And I think you're correct. The green is similarly configured like that today AND Raynor was known to combine the Alps and the Punchbowl.
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http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Mike Sweeney

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2019, 04:02:17 AM »
Quote from: Kyle Harris on March 14, 2019, 10:46:37 PM

I see that now. And I think you're correct. The green is similarly configured like that today AND Raynor was known to combine the Alps and the Punchbowl.


Also, look at the Sven posted diagram of green #3. Watson, I think we have got it.


Mystery photo = 3rd green


Press Agent = bad math student




Joe's version looking back down #3 today:



Sven's Raynor sketch:


« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 04:09:43 AM by Mike Sweeney »
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"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Kyle Harris

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2019, 01:39:48 PM »
Mike,

This now introduces a theory that the present third green is smaller. In the old photo the green would extend much further behind the photographer on to what would be today's greensite - and just the little tongue drawn in the Olmstead drawing is what the photograph shows.

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http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Nigel Islam

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2019, 07:25:58 PM »
Kyle,


When Bret sent that link to me at Christmas I thought it was probably the third, but are we just saying the Golf Illustrated article is mistaken? I’m not arguing just clarifying.
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Jeff Schley

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2019, 02:50:54 AM »
Not sure if anyone would know, but has Mountain Lake created a separate non-profit historical society to fund the renovations for the Colony House as it is on the National Register of Historic Places?  This article states a couple interesting things, https://www.linksmagazine.com/mountain_lake-2/

The debt-free club has spent millions renovating the Colony House’s 36 rooms, bar, dining facilities, and common areas, while also building a new fitness center and pool house, which hosts Thursday night’s popular cookout.1. They are debt free

2. They have spent millions renovating the Colony House

At OFCC for example in 2016, they created the Olympia Fields Country Club Historic Landmark Foundation as a separate 501 (3) c organization to fund the renovations needed to the clubhouse primarily as that is on the National Register of Historic Places. My guess is that Mountain Lake has done a similar exercise to help preserve the jewel that they have as well.Anyone have any insight on this?  I know they are pretty well heeled down there, but optimizing tax deductible donations for preservation of your wonderful club works well.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 02:56:08 AM by Jeff Schley »
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Mike Sweeney

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2019, 05:37:26 AM »
Jeff,


Here is the info on the website - https://www.mountainlakecc.com/Visit/Historic_Colony_House


I have not been a Colony House/National Member for a few years, but the local/winter membership really cares about the place. How to continue that transition to the modern era with a transient family and golfing population will be a challenge, but they had divided some of the larger homes into shared apartments:

https://www.mountainlakecc.com/Live/Available_Properties

It is a unique and beautiful place, a perfect complement to Streamsong, and it has a strong core asset with the "Best Raynor In America" during the winter months.

The family of my son's roommate in college lives in Lake Wales year round by total coincidence, and he loves to tease my son as the "Fancy Manhattan Mountain Lakers". My son's response is along the lines of "my Dad has some golf issues!" :) That was a great era of Disney and Mountain Lake trips for Team Sweeney.
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"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2019, 06:12:45 AM »
Quote from: Mike Sweeney on March 16, 2019, 05:37:26 AM
Jeff,


Here is the info on the website - https://www.mountainlakecc.com/Visit/Historic_Colony_House


I have not been a Colony House/National Member for a few years, but the local/winter membership really cares about the place. How to continue that transition to the modern era with a transient family and golfing population will be a challenge, but they had divided some of the larger homes into shared apartments:

https://www.mountainlakecc.com/Live/Available_Properties

It is a unique and beautiful place, a perfect complement to Streamsong, and it has a strong core asset with the "Best Raynor In America" during the winter months.

The family of my son's roommate in college lives in Lake Wales year round by total coincidence, and he loves to tease my son as the "Fancy Manhattan Mountain Lakers". My son's response is along the lines of "my Dad has some golf issues!" :) That was a great era of Disney and Mountain Lake trips for Team Sweeney.
Mike good move by the club and needed as that clubhouse I'm sure has numerous needs for maintenance and to have it lose any of it's luster would be a shame.
lovely video as well on the website. Maybe a retirement destination in the next 5 years or so and have to get down to check it out in the next few years.  Continue to enjoy.
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"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
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Ted Sturges

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Re: Mountain Lake
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2019, 03:34:13 PM »
I visited Mountain Lake this weekend for the first time.  What a wonderful place to hang out.  I had the pleasure of meeting John Butler who lives there and took the time to seek me out after reading on this site that I would be there (thank you John for doing that).  Mountain Lake was an extremely fun golf course.  It was the best presented golf course condition wise I have played in a very long time (the epitome of firm and fast).  The Raynor template holes were on display as one would expect, with the most impressive being the Redan (11th), the Punchbowl (15th), the double plateau (1st) and the Biarritz (5th).  The 18th is one of the most fun and gorgeous home holes in golf.  I had the good fortune to stay in the Lodge at Mountain Lake, and the service provided by everyone there was off the charts.  I hope I get invited back some day, as it is one of those places where when you are there, the place makes you want to play golf. 


TS
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