The locals rankings versus that of visitors

[Mark_Rowlinson]

My brother-in-law, now long dead, always much preferred the New and (unrebuilt Eden) courses to the Old. He played there a lot. I only occasionally. I much preferred the Old.

[Kalen Braley]

Mark R said this in another thread:

It reminds me of a politician I interviewed years ago when I was working as a musician. I asked him which pieces of music from a fairly eclectic list he would not recommend. He said that he couldn't answer that question because one man's tastes were so different from the next man's.

I think this goes to the essence of a "locals" list as well.  If local's tastes more or less match you're own, then you will likely have a fantastic time with their recommendations, whereas otherwise you will be left wanting more.  The hard part is going somewhere new, where you have no sense of this....its a complete crap shoot.

P.S. Going back to the restaurant analogy, I've traveled all over the western states region and in general the recommendations were solid, even if Utah was a lot more hit and miss.

[Tim Gavrich]

In a perfect world GCA recommended courses would be splashed all over the internet, but when places like Torrey Pines and Mrtyle Beach are such popular destinations, looks like most are getting some poor advice. 

Kalen, there's more than enough good information available on this and other sites re: solid to very good Myrtle Beach golf to suggest this comment is, to be generous, laughable at best. Maybe it's your research methods that are lacking.


Myrtle Beach is actually a perfect example of a place where the prevailing tourist perspective is that the food is mediocre, when the reality for those who take more cues from locals is much more positive.

[Sean_A]

Tom D has long-praised the qualities of the 'average English course' -- as a class, the gold standard for walkable, challenging and sustainable fields of play that for decades have provided countless hours of enjoyment to golfers of all skills-sets over millions of rounds of golf. But I'd imagine that only 1 out of 100/1000 visitors to the isles has planned his trip around (and is most keen to play) the 'average' English course. It's a matter of semantics and subtlety both.

The average English course isn't what Tom recommends. He selects much better than average courses for any real praise.  That is to say...he isn't suggesting a golf traveller take time to play a Doak 3.  That said, he does get stuff badly wrong as he freely admits.  Without question, Tom has learned a ton about GB&I golf since his first Confidential Guide.

Lately I have been pondering Alnmouth Villlage quite a bit.  Tom gave it a 2 in his guide.  I read the guide and didn't give the course a second thought.  I read some stuff on this site and the comments were more positive, but not anything which suggested I should see the course.  I visited the Top 100 site and no mention.  Bear in mind this is over a period of more than 20 years.  I turn up for a game just because...probably convenience and a growing interest in 9 holers were the main reasons.  It was a tough day weather wise, so I didn't get overly enthused, but it was blantantly clear a Doak 2 was missing the mark very badly. I did a photo tour, and not much response, probably because the vast majority of well travelled golfers have not heard of the place and because of this, don't give it a second thought.

A year later I played the course again.  Instead of hopping in the car, I played it again.  Instead of thinking, nah, it ain't all that, I walk away even more impressed and quite frankly shocked that Tom (or anybody) didn't mention the terrain...which to be fair I largely missed on my first go because it was duck and cover weather.  Anyway, the "process" I am going through with Alnmouth Village is the same as for many other courses I have played over time...starting with Kington.  Believe me, I have asked "locals" about the course (being surprised it wasn't mentioned on the Top 100 site) and nobody to date has chirped up with positive things to say.  In fact, they usually talk about the Colt course next door. I will return for sure.  A really interesting aspect of Alnmouth Village is it is a true community course which uses the available land (a very small plot indeed) quite smartly...two factors which seem to be all the rage these days. So it is even more surprising the course is off the radar. Alnmouth Village is exactly the sort of place archies and other decision-makers should be visiting. 

Anyway...most of my point is even locals often don't know what they have.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Do I get a gold star for my support for Alnmouth Village? And for my Welshpool advocacy too?
We need to get you to the likes of St David’s City, Newport Pembs (Braid 9 only) and Machynlleth too. Maybe Cardigan too. I’m sure when the weather eventually permits you to get to play Dunstanburgh Castle you’ll come away smiling. And I suspect Mulranny would blow you away (and not just because it’s usually decidedly windy on the shores of Clew Bay!).
Rural and rustic and off the usual radar can be pretty cool and should be visited by more folks. But you know that already!!!!!


Atb

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Well, I advocated Welshpool for years, and only when Sean visited did people sit up and take notice. Sean, your next place to visit is surely Holywell on the North Wales coast, and I don't think you've yet been to Bull Bay on Anglesey. Maybe I'm wrong.

[John Kirk]

Here in Portland, Oregon:

A few years ago, Tom Doak visited Waverley CC after a handsome Hanse Golf Course Design restoration, and rated it a 7, superior to the other top courses in the area.  His review convinced me that it's the premier spot in Portland.  It's right on the Willamette River, and is hilly, funky and pretty.

But here in town, Waverley often rates fourth best among golf aficionados.  Pumpkin Ridge (Witch Hollow) is probably the overall favorite in town, because of its tournament reputation and natural setting.  But Portland CC and Columbia Edgewater CC are the favorites of many top players in the area, too.

Waverley gets criticized for the severity of some greens, which were softened a bit by the restoration.  Also, the "visuals" on some of the tee shots are a bit perplexing, hard to know where to hit it unless you've played it regularly, which I haven't.

Waverley is the nicest spot and has the coolest looking design.  The bunkers were changed to a flat bottom style with a grass-mounded front, so all you see on some shots is a series of mounds to avoid.  It's very cool looking.

In recent years, I like playing Pumpkin Ridge (Ghost Creek) a bit more than Witch Hollow.  It has a greater variety of hole lengths and designs, and is a bit hillier.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thank you for staying on topic, John....


.... unlike all these other fellas patting themselves on the back for loving the cool little village 9 holer in a village they don’t even live in.


*insert wink emoticon*

[Sean_A]

.... unlike all these other fellas patting themselves on the back for loving the cool little village 9 holer in a village they don’t even live in.

*insert wink emoticon*

Not at all.  My point is where is the outlet for real local opinion to counterbalance a ranking list or well known voice in the golf world?  There isn't a local outlet.  What we get instead are feelings and intuition based on individual experience of speaking to a very small sample size...even after many years living in a locale. The next best thing is folks living in country willing to stop by for a look.  Alnmouth is simply an example highlighting the issue.

Mark & ATB

Practically every backwater course I get to is because someone I trusted recommended it either directly or indirectly.  Most of the time I agree with these guys (you guys!).   

Ciao     

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean,


I’m not berating you for advocating some of these lesser known courses. I think it is great and I hope you long continue.


But an individual highlighting a cool little course is just that - an individual. It has nothing to with whether you are from Alnmouth or from Timbuktu.


I just think this thread is about something different (at least it is for me). The conversation you are having is one we have on hundreds of threads on here.


There are probably only a handful of regions in GB&I where the top-end local ranking varies significantly from the national or global equivalent....


Glasgow vs Western is a pretty good example from Niall... I gave the RCD and Portmarnock view from Ireland...


Any others that would surprise us from those who live and play in a certain area?

[Michael Graham]

Niall,

Visitors: North Berwick > Gullane

Locals: Gullane > North Berwick

I'll be interested if the other NB members here on the board feel the same but from my experiences most locals think Gullane is the better course. Something about walls and crazy greens.

Michael,

Even as a (frequent) visitor I would tend to agree with the assessment if not the reasoning for Gullane v. NB. In saying that, I’m referring to the Gullane courses in general and not just no.1. I should also say I’ve grown to enjoy and appreciate NB a lot more over the years from when I first played it.

I suppose the west coast equivalent is between Glasgow Gailes and Western. I’d played both a couple of times when I joined Gailes mainly because a lot of my friends were members. In an early medal I casually mentioned to my playing partner that I thought Western a better course. He looked at me like I was mad. It only took me a few more plays of each to appreciate why. Gailes is significantly better and more interesting.

The only advantage Western has is that it’s easier to get on, which in itself tells you something.

Niall

Niall,


That's interesting about your take on Western vs Gailes. I've yet to play Gailes but have really enjoyed my two visits to Western. I'll need to get through to play Gailes this year to see how they compare. I'm not sure how golfers through on the East coast would rank them - based on name recognition alone I suspect most would choose Western.

[Niall C]

Michael

If I was still a member I'd have you along in a minute. It's been over a year since I was last at Gailes and even then they had taken down nearly all the trees that were situated behind greens and acres of gorse. I understand that they have gone even further and that all the tree bar the ones on the perimeter are gone, and that they have continued to savage the gorse.

It will never get over the fact that it's not on the sea which is almost a tourist must have but I'd hope that the work done will make it more appealing to visitors. If that's the case I'd hope those visitors playing it for the second time will begin to appreciate it that bit more. It's that kind of course, it grows on you.

Niall

[Niall C]

My brother-in-law, now long dead, always much preferred the New and (unrebuilt Eden) courses to the Old. He played there a lot. I only occasionally. I much preferred the Old.

Mark

I've heard that said by a number of the locals as well. Not sure whether that is the prevailing opinion or whether they are outliers but I value the opinion of at least one of them.

Niall

[Niall C]

Niall,

I actually wasn't trying to make an analogy on the detailed items...but if I was.

Cheap and inexpensive with tons of quantity would be equal to a low priced, uninteresting and boring course that you could play again and again at a bargain rate.

The positive aspects for restaurants would translate to good architecture with a varied routing, well-placed bunkering, interesting greens, a nice setting, etc....even if you had to pay more for the experience.


P.S.  My only point is, sometimes the locals can't be trusted to have good preferences even if they often do!

Kalen

That's interesting. You seem to be suggesting therefore that the locals don't appreciate what's good or rather what's better. My own experience suggests its the other way round in that they locals have a bit more nuanced view than you give credit for and even if you wouldn't necessarily agree with them as a visitor based on one play, they generally get it right as they have had the opportunity to go through the process that Sean describes in his Almouth post.

Niall

[jeffwarne]

In a perfect world GCA recommended courses would be splashed all over the internet, but when places like Torrey Pines and Mrtyle Beach are such popular destinations, looks like most are getting some poor advice. 

Kalen, there's more than enough good information available on this and other sites re: solid to very good Myrtle Beach golf to suggest this comment is, to be generous, laughable at best. Maybe it's your research methods that are lacking.


Myrtle Beach is actually a perfect example of a place where the prevailing tourist perspective is that the food is mediocre, when the reality for those who take more cues from locals is much more positive.

I happen to love going to Myrtle Beach-and there plenty of trip/GCA worthy courses there to fill an itinerary. Over Thanksgiving,  my two restaurant experiences(admittedly one breakfast and one lunch) were excellent down home  local fare though my tastes are quite simple.
And every time I go to San Diego I stop by Torrey Pines for a souvenier and wish I were out there playing-looks spectacular to me and sometimes you can long to enjoy the course, scenery, history and seeting without getting your Redan rocks off.


bringing it on topic, when I was lin San Diego last month the one golf local I ran into randomly raved about Torrey Pines where he played regularly(I of course ended up playing previously lined up Goat Hill but definitely could've done a day of Torrey given the time/opportunity)

[jeffwarne]

Tom D has long-praised the qualities of the 'average English course' -- as a class, the gold standard for walkable, challenging and sustainable fields of play that for decades have provided countless hours of enjoyment to golfers of all skills-sets over millions of rounds of golf. But I'd imagine that only 1 out of 100/1000 visitors to the isles has planned his trip around (and is most keen to play) the 'average' English course. It's a matter of semantics and subtlety both.

Anyway...most of my point is even locals often don't know what they have.

Ciao

Sean,
In my experience that is almost always true...and in fact many times it's taken Doak to tell them-and is the reason so many classics have been bastardized by the fad du jour over the years.
In my own experience
Augusta CC-brought in Nicklaus in the 80's eeeeeekkkkkk(thankfully restored early 2000'a)
Palmetto-largely ignored by locals until irrigation installed late 80's with side effects(somewhat restored by Tom Mooore, Rhett Baker, Doak, Hanse)
Aiken Golf Club-ditto (brought back to life by pro/owner)
Forest Hills Golf Club (Ross)-bastardized twice by Palmer design (hasn't recovered)


Goat Hill Shelter Island-even the locals make  fun of it
Engineers-the guy who just bought it (as a real estate play) had no idea of its architectural significance and cult following as he was simply listening to the rank and file who called it goofy

[Sean_A]

Sean,

There are probably only a handful of regions in GB&I where the top-end local ranking varies significantly from the national or global equivalent....

Glasgow vs Western is a pretty good example from Niall... I gave the RCD and Portmarnock view from Ireland...

Any others that would surprise us from those who live and play in a certain area?

Ally

Sorry, I didn't realize it was a discussion solely about locals VS flybys comapring two or more courses in an area.  I thought it might also be about just one course. 

Of course there is a rumour that most locals prefer St Andrews New to Old.  That might be due to pace of place and the hassle of getting on the Old. 

How bout Royal Aberdeen VS Cruden Bay?  I have heard many say locals prefer Aberdeen. 

Again, I take the idea of "most locals" with a large spoonful of salt.

Ciao

[Brad Tufts]

Interesting stuff here.


In my neck of the woods, the only one I can think of is the juxtaposition of the mature, later-career Ross courses like Charles River, Winchester, and Salem CC v. the older courses like Myopia and Essex.


I think there has long been a local perception of the more modern, bigger Ross courses being the better tournament venues (and therefore better courses), but this has changed with sympathetic restoration and more knowledge locally about the place in golf history of Essex and Myopia.


I do admit it would be difficult without lots of effort for the regular Mass. golfer to even get on all five mentioned above to compare, and the analysis is splitting hairs anyways, as all five are amazing courses.

[Tom_Doak]

My brother-in-law, now long dead, always much preferred the New and (unrebuilt Eden) courses to the Old. He played there a lot. I only occasionally. I much preferred the Old.

This is one of the first that came to mind for me, but a lot of it can be explained by how unusual The Old Course is, and by the general contrariness of people who don’t want to agree with the so-called experts.


By contrast, when I first went to the UK in 1982, Gullane and Royal Aberdeen and The Berkshire and Burnham were almost universally considered superior to North Berwick and Cruden Bay and Swinley Forest and St Enodoc.  I’d guess that Deal / Sandwich also fell into that category before Sandwich got The Open back.  In all of those cases, it was a vote for the longer, more challenging, less blind, less unfair course, IMHO, as much as it had anything to do with knowing the course better.  (The irony is, we often say the these quirky courses would be more widely regarded if people played them enough to understand them better, but that is not the case in my experience— people who prefer straightforward golf are not going to change their minds.)


As Jeff mentioned, the rankings, my books, GCA and other sources have changed the conventional wisdom in many of these debates by changing newcomers’ expectations, but that doesn’t apply to the locals who made up their minds long ago.

[Edward Glidewell]

In a perfect world GCA recommended courses would be splashed all over the internet, but when places like Torrey Pines and Mrtyle Beach are such popular destinations, looks like most are getting some poor advice. 

Kalen, there's more than enough good information available on this and other sites re: solid to very good Myrtle Beach golf to suggest this comment is, to be generous, laughable at best. Maybe it's your research methods that are lacking.


Myrtle Beach is actually a perfect example of a place where the prevailing tourist perspective is that the food is mediocre, when the reality for those who take more cues from locals is much more positive.

I have to agree with Tim here -- there are some bad golf courses in Myrtle Beach, but there are also plenty of really solid ones. I think there at least 20 courses in the Myrtle Beach area that are better than any non-private course within 60 miles of Atlanta (and they're better than many of the privates too).


Are they as good as what you'd get at Streamsong or Bandon Dunes? Of course not. But you can also stay in a nice condo and play 6 rounds at fun golf courses in Myrtle (Caledonia, True Blue, Barefoot, etc.) for probably a third of the price of a trip to Streamsong or Bandon. If price/time aren't a consideration, then of course you go to Streamsong or Bandon, but it is a consideration for most people. Myrtle is a great option for a golf trip for those people.

[Lou_Duran]

It will never get over the fact that it's not on the sea which is almost a tourist must have but I'd hope that the work done will make it more appealing to visitors. If that's the case I'd hope those visitors playing it for the second time will begin to appreciate it that bit more. It's that kind of course, it grows on you.

I confess that I was skeptical about playing Gailes after hearing from others that it would be a let down from its neighbor across the tracks.  Though I have to consider the effect of having a most amiable host, I found Gailes to be a very pleasant surprise, a challenging test without beating you down, and a course I would enjoy playing again.  Not to take anything away from Western- the sea and its natural beauty are awesome- but like so many links out-and-back courses (4 to the N, 9 S, then 5 N), it gets tedious and bruising fighting strong winds for many holes in succession (the nine middle holes going S on the day of play).


As to the subject matter, there is a lot of noise if the premise is that locals have a different, more valid perspective than tourists on the local offerings.  Ask locals who are invested in the orthodoxy of this site and they will likely have a much different opinion than those who are members of a high-end Fazio club.  I spend way too much time on golf and talk to a lot of people, but there is no way I could say what locals or visitors prefer, other than perhaps project my own personal biasis.


Years ago I asked Ben Crenshaw (who doesn't know me from the next guy; I was a guest as his club in Austin) whether he might answer a few questions on gca for this site and he pretty much responded with the quote below.  I am sure that Ben has strong opinions about what he likes in gca, but he is known to be a humble man and, perhaps, he has acquired some good political instincts in plying his trade. 


It reminds me of a politician I interviewed years ago when I was working as a musician. I asked him which pieces of music from a fairly eclectic list he would not recommend. He said that he couldn't answer that question because one man's tastes were so different from the next man's.

[Dave McCollum]

I find the difficulty with local golf opinions is that they are local.  Many local golfers haven't seen many styles in the wide world of golf.  Their views seem to be tilted much more toward conditioning and set up than design/architecture.  In fact, when our golfers travel--which means go some place warm--they seem rather like Kalen's foodies looking for large portions at cheap prices.   

[Thomas Dai]

I’m wondering to what extent there are even ‘locals’ these days what with the way technology, travel and communications etc have developed over the last couple of decades.
Where once most folks may only have known (and been satisfied with?) what was in their immediate locality now folks of all ages can move their fingers over a screen and see what the equivalent on the other side of the world is like and even be there to experience it in a few hours. And likes, dislikes and expectations will change accordingly. The world is a much smaller place these days and life and golf have changed accordingly and will most likely change even more.
Atb

[Niall C]

Lou

Thank you for your kind words. That was a good day.

My biggest regret at giving up my membership is that I can no longer host guests and show off the course.

Tom

Let me be the first to hold my hand up and declare myself as being a bit of a contrarian and it seems evident to me that there are a few others on here as well. The thing about being willing to hold contrary views isn’t about dogmatically going against the orthodoxy but being willing to question that orthodoxy, and to make a judgement based on experience rather than because you’re following the herd as most visitors tend to do (me included).

Niall       

[Niall C]

I find the difficulty with local golf opinions is that they are local.  Many local golfers haven't seen many styles in the wide world of golf.  Their views seem to be tilted much more toward conditioning and set up than design/architecture.  In fact, when our golfers travel--which means go some place warm--they seem rather like Kalen's foodies looking for large portions at cheap prices.   

Dave

I was going to write a more thoughtful and considered response but simply have run out of time. But simply put your views on locals is nonsense and patronizing, and if I was relying on someones view I would go for the local over the visitor every time.

Niall