Yeamans Hall v Camargo

[ward peyronnin]

Played an enjoyable course yesterday and the finish reminded me of Camargo 18. Since I am in SC I then thought of Yeaman Hall's splendid finishing hole which naturally led me to compare the starters for each course and I believe that Yeaman's holes handily best Camargo's. I would also argue for the walk in the park edge as well.

We used to often engage in a match play hole v hole comparison of courses. I referenced a list and Camargo enters at #19 while Yeamans falls in at #42. Now considering the above grants Yeamans a 2 hole edge I thought it would be fun to challenge those of you who have had the good fortune to play each to conduct the exercise and reveal your result but more interestingly indicate where Camargo rallies to overtake Yeamans by 23 spots. I grant you numerically the GW points difference is only .5 but clearly that represents a noticeable spread. Ted?

[Tom_Doak]

Played an enjoyable course yesterday and the finish reminded me of Camargo 18. Since I am in SC I then thought of Yeaman Hall's splendid finishing hole which naturally led me to compare the starters for each course and I believe that Yeaman's holes handily best Camargo's. I would also argue for the walk in the park edge as well.

We used to often engage in a match play hole v hole comparison of courses. I referenced a list and Camargo enters at #19 while Yeamans falls in at #42. Now considering the above grants Yeamans a 2 hole edge I thought it would be fun to challenge those of you who have had the good fortune to play each to conduct the exercise and reveal your result but more interestingly indicate where Camargo rallies to overtake Yeamans by 23 spots. I grant you numerically the GW points difference is only .5 but clearly that represents a noticeable spread. Ted?

If you are going to do a comparison of two Raynor courses, it only makes sense to compare them Redan v Redan, etc.  So I will start that way here, listing the number of the hole at Camargo and then Yeamans:


15 v 6  Redan - YHC
5 v 13  Eden - Camargo
8 v 16  Biarritz - Camargo
11 v 3  Short - YHC


10 v 17  Punchbowl - YHC [Camargo's is not a punchbowl but is a strong hole]
7 v 5    Alps - draw [neither is that exciting]
17 v 7  Road - draw [both are good but not terrific]
1 v 1    Double Plateau - YHC [by default again]
16 v 11  Maiden green - Camargo



3 v 10 - Camargo due to terrain
6 v 12 - YHC - neither that great though

4 v 8 - draw - both excellent holes, could give this to Camargo but didn't
9 v 4 - Camargo - both are sort-of Bottle holes
12 v 15 - YHC
14 v 2 - Camargo
13 v 14 - Camargo - neither really fits a category, but I think 14 at Yeamans is the one overrated hole there

2 v 9   par five  - draw
18 v 18  YHC - the other par-5 at Camargo is the Road hole, already listed, so I went with matching up finishing holes




By that measure, they're even.  Others may respectfully disagree.  Camargo is the better piece of terrain for varied stances etc., Yeamans is the cooler place.  Some of the difference in the rankings is based on Camargo being fixed up before Yeamans and gaining traction earlier.

[Brian Ross]

13 v 14 - Camargo - neither really fits a category, but I think 14 at Yeamans is the one overrated hole there

Tom,


Do you mind expanding on your comment about 14 at YHC? I only ask because I recall being enamored with that hole the one time I played out there. Interested to know what you don't like about it.

[Ted Sturges]

Tom,


I'm also confused about your "overrated" comment about the 14th at YHC.  By "overrated" are you implying that it might not be the best golf hole in the entire state of South Carolina?...or that there might be some other holes at Yeamans that should be considered just as great as the 14th?   


TS

[Mark_Fine]

They are both great courses but they would be better if they had water views like Fisher’s Island 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,


Do you mind expanding on your comment about 14 at YHC? I only ask because I recall being enamored with that hole the one time I played out there. Interested to know what you don't like about it.

It’s a straightaway hole with no strategy.  It’s memorable (especially to first time players) because the green is jacked up in the air, which you don’t expect to see in the lowcountry.  If it was meant to be a version of the hole at Scotscraig that Macdonald occasionally used, it’s a pretty weak version of that.  If it has other redeeming features I’ve never noticed them.


Where Camargo holds its own is the fact that several of its strongest holes (4,9,10,14) are not really template holes and that makes it stand apart from its cousins, even if its template holes are not the best versions of them.

[Ted Sturges]

T. Doak:

It’s a straightaway hole with no strategy.  It’s memorable (especially to first time players) because the green is jacked up in the air, which you don’t expect to see in the lowcountry.  If it was meant to be a version of the hole at Scotscraig that Macdonald occasionally used, it’s a pretty weak version of that.  If it has other redeeming features I’ve never noticed them.


Where Camargo holds its own is the fact that several of its strongest holes (4,9,10,14) are not really template holes and that makes it stand apart from its cousins, even if its template holes are not the best versions of them.


T. Sturges:

For a straight hole, I think it has significant strategy.  The approach is generally easier from the left half of the fairway, based on the slope/presentation of the green.  The easier tee shot is to blast it down the right side, because there is no bunker or trees to deal with, but that leaves a more difficult approach.  Depending on the hole location, the fierce green-side bunkers definitely factor into the strategy of the hole, as to challenge a right side hole location and miss right (into the bunker) is death and will most likely end in bogey or worse.  The left bunker is even deeper!, but does offer a chance to get it up and down based on the slope of the green.  An approach shot above the hole leaves a very difficult putt (especially at fast green speeds), and missing your approach short risks having the ball roll all the way back down the hill.  The approach shot is one of the funnest and most demanding shots on the entire golf course.  Beyond that, it's a stunning hole based on the fantastic green complex.  Tom...me thinks you have underrated it.


As for comparing Camargo to YHC, I think the clear difference between the two are the greens.  Camargo has a bunch of huge, flat greens.  On a recent round there, I probably had ten or eleven dead straight, flat 30 foot putts.  The course is on great property and is visually very appealing, but for my taste, too many big flat greens.  I think YHC is a 9, and Camargo is an 8 (and I'm admittedly biased).






TS

[Joe Bausch]

Not much to contribute here but I am enjoying the thread.  I do have a photo album from late 2010 of Yeamans Hall:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/YeamansHall/

[Tom_Doak]

For a straight hole, I think it has significant strategy.  The approach is generally easier from the left half of the fairway, based on the slope/presentation of the green.  The easier tee shot is to blast it down the right side, because there is no bunker or trees to deal with, but that leaves a more difficult approach.  Depending on the hole location, the fierce green-side bunkers definitely factor into the strategy of the hole, as to challenge a right side hole location and miss right (into the bunker) is death and will most likely end in bogey or worse.  The left bunker is even deeper!, but does offer a chance to get it up and down based on the slope of the green.  An approach shot above the hole leaves a very difficult putt (especially at fast green speeds), and missing your approach short risks having the ball roll all the way back down the hill.  The approach shot is one of the funnest and most demanding shots on the entire golf course.  Beyond that, it's a stunning hole based on the fantastic green complex.  Tom...me thinks you have underrated it.


So ... you are forced to play toward the center of the green regardless of where the hole is, because of the severe hazards surrounding the relatively large green?  Ooh, that's strategic!



As for comparing Camargo to YHC, I think the clear difference between the two are the greens.  Camargo has a bunch of huge, flat greens.  On a recent round there, I probably had ten or eleven dead straight, flat 30 foot putts.  The course is on great property and is visually very appealing, but for my taste, too many big flat greens. 


Well, yes, we rebuilt and added contour to all of the greens on the one course, and not on the other.  But modesty and professional neutrality prevents me from rating one above the other on that basis.  You can, if you want to!

[JC Urbina]

Ted,


Many of the people on this site have not seen the recent changes to Yeamans Hall from last year.  After the regrassing of all 18 greens and new cultivars sewn in on the expanded fairways,  the strategy reveals itself on each hole even more then before. 


Lowered tees, additional historical bunkering and greeens that I reworked after the initial go around almost 20 years ago gives Yeamans Hall the added character that I knew was always  there. 


Having to give numbers to holes so that a comparison  can be made  between two great golf courses seems pointless.  However, I understand where Ward is coming from, the need to determine which is better.


I will agree with you, hole # 14 with the expanded fairways and new mowing lines, reworked green surface, removal of the backround clutter and the sensation  that you get when you walk on to the new  lowered tees on 14 still gives me a sense of bewilderment, how did the team of builders figure out that perfect height, to marry the green surface with the fairway horizon line almost 150 yards away from each other.


Daring you to challenge the landing area with the right club.

[archie_struthers]

 


when Tom mentioned a jacked up green in South Carolina i got a wave of terror thinking of that crazy # 11th at the CC of Charleston
I'm shaking just thinking of that beast

[Tom_Doak]

when Tom mentioned a jacked up green in South Carolina i got a wave of terror thinking of that crazy # 11th at the CC of Charleston
I'm shaking just thinking of that beast

Archie:


They made that green less severe a few years ago; I haven’t seen it since.  The 14th at Yeamans has bunkers as deep as that, but the green is nearly twice as wide.

[ward peyronnin]

Tom I do find your comparison interesting and one valid methodology. I do not remember Carmargo nearly as well as Yeamans so I am not as confident of my ability to make that kind of comparison and we are comparing two great properties.
I will be the first to go out on the limb and post my traditional chronological hole vs hole results of 10 holes to YHC (1,3,5,6,9,11,14.15,18) to 5 CGC(2,5,7,12,17) 3 draws.

You are right that Camargo is a beefier more rugged property but for me that leads to some forced and awkward feeling places and angles. Lo country charm and some river views  along with a better job of planting small groves of large shrubs and trees in the often savannah like interstitial golf spaces are superior elements for Yeamans. At YHC a sporty strip of a practice range connects directly to the practice green and thence to the first tee seamlessley whilst at Canargo the practice field is far removed, rough, and featureless. Plus there is work remaining at CGC. For instance the road hole has no rear bunker

Even if my match play result is overstated YHC wins the walk in the park contest as well. All this IMHO
 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom I do find your comparison interesting and one valid methodology. I do not remember Carmargo nearly as well as Yeamans so I am not as confident of my ability to make that kind of comparison and we are comparing two great properties.
I will be the first to go out on the limb and post my traditional chronological hole vs hole results of 10 holes to YHC (1,3,5,6,9,11,14.15,18) to 5 CGC(2,5,7,12,17) 3 draws.

You are right that Camargo is a beefier more rugged property but for me that leads to some forced and awkward feeling places and angles. Lo country charm and some river views  along with a better job of planting small groves of large shrubs and trees in the often savannah like interstitial golf spaces are superior elements for Yeamans. At YHC a sporty strip of a practice range connects directly to the practice green and thence to the first tee seamlessley whilst at Canargo the practice field is far removed, rough, and featureless. Plus there is work remaining at CGC. For instance the road hole has no rear bunker

Even if my match play result is overstated YHC wins the walk in the park contest as well. All this IMHO

Ward: 


You have Yeamans and Camargo both winning #5 and no result for #4.  I think Camargo wins both those numbers easily.  #9 at Camargo is for me is the most interesting hole on the course, and 9 at Yeamans nothing special other than the view backwards from the tee.  I would also give 14 and 16 to Camargo, but 17 to Yeamans.  So, I would have it 9 to 8 Camargo, I think:  a close call.  Of course, I haven't seen either of them for some time, though now that I've got a daughter in Charleston I have an excuse to go back and play.


For sure, Yeamans wins some style points; I'll take the southern charm over the quiet exclusivity any day.  And the trees and the homes on the perimeter are more beautiful at Yeamans.  I don't care about the walk from the practice range since I would never waste time hitting balls at either place.


If you're going to get into eccentric stuff like that, though, I must say the chance of bumping into Neil Armstrong at Camargo was more intriguing than having dinner with Gen. Westmoreland at Yeamans Hall.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I haven't seen either of them for some time, though now that I've got a daughter in Charleston I have an excuse to go back and play.

Camargo has done some nice work with re-locating some fairways and possibly some bunkers and stuff like that. I believe 10 shifted back to the left a bit, so the bunker that had moved into the rough was closer to the fairway, and a few other similar things.

[Tom_Doak]

Erik:  My associate Don Placek is still doing the work at Camargo; I walked through most of the changes you’re describing when I was last there, 3-4 years ago.  But I haven’t seen the results.


I’ve been consulting at Camargo since Pete Dye sent me there to help them in 1984 - 35 years ago this summer !!

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Erik:  My associate Don Placek is still doing the work at Camargo; I walked through most of the changes you’re describing when I was last there, 3-4 years ago.  But I haven’t seen the results.

I’ve been consulting at Camargo since Pete Dye sent me there to help them in 1984 - 35 years ago this summer !!

Yeah, I thought you were consulting there, so your comment caught me by surprise. I've enjoyed the changes I've seen, though I haven't been to Camargo since maybe three years ago, or two and a half… so they weren't all done. I think some are still ongoing, even perhaps now.
 
I really enjoy Camargo, and I haven't seen Yeamans so my contributions to this topic are now over. 

[Ted Sturges]

For a straight hole, I think it has significant strategy.  The approach is generally easier from the left half of the fairway, based on the slope/presentation of the green.  The easier tee shot is to blast it down the right side, because there is no bunker or trees to deal with, but that leaves a more difficult approach.  Depending on the hole location, the fierce green-side bunkers definitely factor into the strategy of the hole, as to challenge a right side hole location and miss right (into the bunker) is death and will most likely end in bogey or worse.  The left bunker is even deeper!, but does offer a chance to get it up and down based on the slope of the green.  An approach shot above the hole leaves a very difficult putt (especially at fast green speeds), and missing your approach short risks having the ball roll all the way back down the hill.  The approach shot is one of the funnest and most demanding shots on the entire golf course.  Beyond that, it's a stunning hole based on the fantastic green complex.  Tom...me thinks you have underrated it.


So ... you are forced to play toward the center of the green regardless of where the hole is, because of the severe hazards surrounding the relatively large green?  Ooh, that's strategic!



As for comparing Camargo to YHC, I think the clear difference between the two are the greens.  Camargo has a bunch of huge, flat greens.  On a recent round there, I probably had ten or eleven dead straight, flat 30 foot putts.  The course is on great property and is visually very appealing, but for my taste, too many big flat greens. 


Well, yes, we rebuilt and added contour to all of the greens on the one course, and not on the other.  But modesty and professional neutrality prevents me from rating one above the other on that basis.  You can, if you want to!

Sorry gents, I was off-line for a few days (enjoying 72 holes at Yeamans Hall, Friday-Sunday).  For my money, Yeamans beats Camargo 6 up (I have the front nine all square, Yeamans winning 1, 3, 6, and 8, Camargo winning 2, 5, 7, and 9, with the courses halving #4...YHC wins 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 17 and 18, with Camargo winning only the 16th hole on the back, and I have them halving the 12th). I think YHC is a Doak 9 and Camargo is a Doak 8.  I guess my only comment to add on this is to express additional surprise on Tom's comments above.  I own a copy of every published edition of The Confidential Guide, and I'm wondering when "professional neutrality" has suddenly appeared on the scene to prevent Tom from offering his brutally honest and always insightful opinion.


TS